Lasher question re: tripping and attacking prone opponents

[Joren]

I have a quick question about the S&F Lasher prestige class. I don't believe this was answered in the prior thread regarding the Lasher.

If I am in an adjacent 5' square to my opponent, and I use a whip to trip that adjacent opponent, do I suffer the -4 penalty on subsequent attacks to hit the now prone opponent, or is the Lasher's whip treated as a melee weapon for purposes of hitting a prone opponent?

I am considering making my Lasher an expert at tripping, using a "sweeping" whip (MoF), but I don't want to inadvertently create more problems for myself by making it harder to hit my opponents...

Joren the Divider

 

[AGGEMAM]

If I am in an adjacent 5' square to my opponent, and I use a whip to trip that adjacent opponent, do I suffer the -4 penalty on subsequent attacks to hit the now prone opponent,

Yup, and you suffer AoOs.

or is the Lasher's whip treated as a melee weapon for purposes of hitting a prone opponent?

No, what made you think that ?

 

[Joren]

Re: Re: Lasher question re: tripping and attacking prone opponents

Yup, and you suffer AoOs.

I don't believe this is accurate, since one of the Lasher level 1 abilities allows a Lasher to attack in melee combat with a whip without provoking an attack of opportunity. I don't have my S&F in front of me, or I would identify it by name.

No, what made you think that ?

Because the Lasher can attack with the whip without some of the ranged weapon effects of the whip. While I don't believe this effect is spelled out in the S&F, I wasn't able to tell if this was a reasonable conclusion based on the modifications to the use of the whip due to the Lasher's level 1 abilities.

I think the character's strategy is going to be to attack normally, except for the final iterative attack, which would be a trip. That would leave the enemy open to attacks at a +4 bonus by other melee combatants, and the enemy is likely to stand up before my next round, thereby removing the ranged attack penalty on a prone opponent.

Actually, this brings to mind another question:

If I am wearing slippers of spider climbing, and I am standing on the ceiling directly over an opponent, and I succeed in tripping the opponent, would it still be reasonable to penalize my whip attacks against the prone opponent? If the reasoning for providing a negative modifier for hitting a prone opponent with a ranged attack is that the angle of attack is reduced when the opponent is prone, that rationale would no longer apply if one were directly above the prone opponent, correct?

edited to fix formatting/spelling

 

[Zarthon]

If I am in an adjacent 5' square to my opponent, and I use a whip to trip that adjacent opponent, do I suffer the -4 penalty on subsequent attacks to hit the now prone opponent, or is the Lasher's whip treated as a melee weapon for purposes of hitting a prone opponent?

You still suffer the -4 penalty on attacks against a prone opponent, A whip is a Range weapon it's description [PHB pg 104] says: Although you keep it in hand, treat it as a projectile weapon with a maximum range of 15 feet and no range penalties.

I am considering making my Lasher an expert at tripping, using a "sweeping" whip (MoF), but I don't want to inadvertently create more problems for myself by making it harder to hit my opponents...

There is nothing wrong with your Lasher still being an expert at tripping (even though you suffer a penalty for attacking prone opponents), with the Lashers extra attacks, the 15ft reach of the whip and the right feats (Weapon focus, Weapon Spec, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, etc...) you can pretty much trip all your partys foes and then let the melee fighters finish them off.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I am considering making my Lasher an expert at tripping, using a "sweeping" whip (MoF)...

Only if the quality is worded differently in MaoF to its entry in the Arms and Equipment Guide.

I don't have MaoF, but A&EG contains the line "Only melee weapons can have this ability".

(I believe several abilities have changed in A&EG - someone was telling me the the MaoF Screaming quality specifies that the bonus damage still works in a Silence spell, where the A&EG says it does not...)

-Hyp.

 

[0-hr]

Many problems could be avoided if the Lasher ability just said they could use a whip as if it were a melee weapon when attacking adjacent foes.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Many problems could be avoided if the Lasher ability just said they could use a whip as if it were a melee weapon when attacking adjacent foes.

If they're making an AoO, they can

-Hyp.

 

[0-hr]

If they're making an AoO, they can

Oh really? So if I'm making a trip as an AoO I don't suffer a -4 to hit? What if I'm flanking during my AoO, do I get +2 to hit?

Perhaps you'd like to revise your answer...

 

[Zarthon]

Many problems could be avoided if the Lasher ability just said they could use a whip as if it were a melee weapon when attacking adjacent foes.

That does not need to be stated as the Lasher gets an ability called: Close Combat: At 1st level, the lasher can attack an opponent in a threatened square with a whip or whip dagger and not provoke an attack of opportunity.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Oh really? So if I'm making a trip as an AoO I don't suffer a -4 to hit?

That's right. Your AoO is made "as if wielding a melee weapon".

What if I'm flanking during my AoO, do I get +2 to hit?

That's right. Your AoO is made "as if wielding a melee weapon".

Perhaps you'd like to revise your answer...

Not at all - I'm quite comfortable with it

That does not need to be stated as the Lasher gets an ability called: Close Combat: At 1st level, the lasher can attack an opponent in a threatened square with a whip or whip dagger and not provoke an attack of opportunity.

That says nothing about it not being a ranged weapon - it merely says he doesn't provoke AoOs. It's not until he receives the Whip Lash special ability that his whip is treated as a melee weapon... and then only when he's making an AoO.

-Hyp.