Last week, the Level 14-16 party beat Graz'zt, 2 Marilith and a Storm Giant...easily

[Upper_Krust]

I think you've both hit on important parts of high level play. Obviously enough people have complained about high level play that there's an issue--I'm not going to gaslight a lot of players by saying there isn't.

Absolutely and that main complaint is the Monsters are not tough enough.

That said, there are important things about high level play the DM needs to understand.
1. You can't treat those encounters like lower level encounters. High level creatures have resources that lower level creatures don't have that don't necessarily appear in the statblock, so tossing them into an encounter room like you would with a bunch of orcs is going to feel disappointing. Lair actions, minions, location, etc are all really important. A demon lord doesn't become a demon lord unless they fight the battle on their terms, in a location they choose. When doing high level encounters, the DM needs to account for all of this when setting up the encounter.

Totally agree.

2. Like John says, most people don't want the same thing "but bigger numbers!". The biggest gripe of 3e was high level play (designing monsters and crazy stat bonuses). It was a time consuming math problem every round. I actually think 5e did a good job with bounded accuracy and keeping the numbers lower, but in order for that to work, you have to see point #1.

It was too complex in 3e because you have too many feats, skills, resistances and all sorts things for DMs to remember - it was just too much.

The problems are never epic monsters do 500+ damage and have 2000+ hit points (or whatever), its monsters giving DMs too many powers and abilities to remember. DM's should not have to remember more than a handful of things to run 1 monster. Keep stat-blocks small even for Boss Monsters; 4e managed to do this well.

My approach I take in the God Rules Player's Guide is that monsters get maybe 1-3 different attacks (that deliver 60% of their 'damage') then have a choice of 6 Combat Reactions which can be randomly chosen by the DM (rolling 1d4 or 1d4+2 when the monster is bloodied). Each Combat Reaction deals a fraction of the monster's 'damage' and replaces Legendary Actions so they operate after an enemy's turn and the monsters gets 1 (regular), 2 (mini-boss), 3 (Boss) or 4 (Solo) such Combat Reactions depending on how much more powerful it is compared to the PCs: Mini-boss = +4 Challenge Rating, Boss +8, Solo +12.

 

[John98GR]

Not sure I agree. Having immortal characters, cosmic monsters and Great Old Ones in D&D and seeing the 'crazy' stats is half the fun - provided its all consistent. As long as you retain the same basic damage/hit point relationship that the core 5e rules were built upon then it doesn't matter if the Hit Points are 50 or 50,000.

A character can feel/be cosmic without their HP being 50k, their BAB +250, their AC 274, and their cosmic beam dealing 1000d20 damage.
And notoriously, if you take Ascension as-is, those stats do not even matter when everyone Auto-hits, or has 500+ "No You" trap-cards up their sleeve.
Abilities like Alter Reality, Abrogate, Dead Zone and the like do a lot more to make Characters feel Cosmic than hilariously big numbers.
As someone who has actively attempted to use your books, I have to say the novelty of "big numbers" fades extremely fast to the average player.
The truth of the matter, at least from what I've seen both online and on my own table, is that nobody actually likes dealing with immortal math with a straight face.
A game where the basis of rolls are d4, d6, d8, d10, d12 and d20s simply does not work with high-double or triple-digit numbers.
It is "fun", but it is not sustainable.
What exactly is that d20 attack roll going to do when your BAB (or Proficiency bonus) is +9000?
Will you carefully curate the experience so that everyone has ACs in the 9010-9020 category? Then why do you need the two extra digits for?
What's the need for 4 digits when 2 digits completely encapsulate the same mechanics?
A Cosmic Character can no-sell a Normal Character by simply belonging in a different "Power Rank" instead of a tremendous math gap.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Just want to comment on this specific fight setup -

Graz'zt should be using his teleport to stay out of movement range of all the melee PCs. He has 4 casts of Dominate and a number of spells/legendary actions which create more distance between him and his foes. Was the combat in a very small room?

It was in a set of caverns one central chamber (about 12x12) then a few smaller ones.

Part of the issue was Graz't (and his side) rolled terrible in Initiative. As I recall he did Dominate someone on his First turn, by that point he was down 1 Marilith already.

The Paladin with the Holy Avenger was able to Touch-Dispel the Charmed Fighter effect at the start of his Turn.

Round 2 and we dropped the second Marilith and dealt some decent damage to the Storm Giant. Graz'zt tried some melee and injured the Barbarian a bit.

Start of Round 3 our biggest damage-dealer, the Barbarian, hit 2 crits on the Storm Giant and he dropped. I chipped in with some damage vs Graz'zt. The Paladin and Fighter knocked Graz'zt prone and delivered some whoop-ass to him with smites. Graz'zt used some Legendary Action (I think) and we all had to make some crazy WIS saves (I used Inspiration and Indomitable to beat it) the Barbarian and Fighter failed. Graz'zt teleported out of the Prone situation and attempted to escape.

So start of Round 4 it was only Graz'zt left - who was planning to escape. I'd been saving my Action Surge (X-Bow Fighter Level 14 Battlemaster) and I somehow landed SIX shots to Graz'zt taking -5 on each roll for 143 damage which killed him.

His spell save DC of 23 should mean that most PCs literally cannot roll high enough to save. Even with resilient:WIS, the 2 fighters/barb should have a 80-85% chance of failing against Dominate or Command. The PCs should constantly be Losing Turns.

Yes that was a nuisance. I think the Rogue, Fighter and Barbarian all failed at some points in the fight. Only my character (Fighter using Inspiration and Indomitable) and the Paladin didn't fail. But through luck or whatever it never got to make a big difference.

 

[billd91]

When I ran to level 20 (Age of Worms), it was hit points, hit points, hit points. Granted, I had 6 players instead of just a more average 4, so I included more minion-type creatures to encounters to compensate. But standard hit points tended to be a bit thin for monsters even based on the custom monster table - so I increased them shamelessly, particularly for bosses. I set Kyuss up with 1200 hit points - and it turned out to not be very much in the end. He lasted 2 rounds. I should have gone more with 2000.

 

[Upper_Krust]

A character can feel/be cosmic without their HP being 50k, their BAB +250, their AC 274, and their cosmic beam dealing 1000d20 damage.

Correct, but you are thinking in 3E Immortals Handbook terms (which I always maintained worked up to about Greater God levels), not 5e God Rules Player's Guide terms (which works at any level).

And notoriously, if you take Ascension as-is, those stats do not even matter when everyone Auto-hits, or has 500+ "No You" trap-cards up their sleeve.

Precisely why I have dialed down the number of Divine Abilities to a 1e Deities & Demigods style fraction in the new God Rules: Player's Guide.

In 3e a Greater God would have 16 Divine Abilities and innumerable Feats/Epic Feats.

In 5e a Greater God has 3 Divine Boons.

Abilities like Alter Reality, Abrogate, Dead Zone and the like do a lot more to make Characters feel Cosmic than hilariously big numbers.

True, which is why I have kept those in.

As someone who has actively attempted to use your books, I have to say the novelty of "big numbers" fades extremely fast to the average player.

Agreed.

The truth of the matter, at least from what I've seen both online and on my own table, is that nobody actually likes dealing with immortal math with a straight face.

I think after Greater God power in 3e balance is optional you could say.

A game where the basis of rolls are d4, d6, d8, d10, d12 and d20s simply does not work with high-double or triple-digit numbers.

Luckily not applicable to 5e.

It is "fun", but it is not sustainable.

Agreed. Why do you think I stopped writing 3e Material amigo.

What exactly is that d20 attack roll going to do when your BAB (or Proficiency bonus) is +9000?
Will you carefully curate the experience so that everyone has ACs in the 9010-9020 category? Then why do you need the two extra digits for?
What's the need for 4 digits when 2 digits completely encapsulate the same mechanics?
A Cosmic Character can no-sell a Normal Character by simply belonging in a different "Power Rank" instead of a tremendous math gap.

None of that really applies with 5e. Aside from Damage and HP most of the other factors are kept small and the d20 roll stays relevant.

I should point out in the following example his Speed is wrong (early build) and should be about 450 or so.

 

[Upper_Krust]

When I ran to level 20 (Age of Worms), it was hit points, hit points, hit points. Granted, I had 6 players instead of just a more average 4, so I included more minion-type creatures to encounters to compensate. But standard hit points tended to be a bit thin for monsters even based on the custom monster table - so I increased them shamelessly, particularly for bosses. I set Kyuss up with 1200 hit points - and it turned out to not be very much in the end. He lasted 2 rounds. I should have gone more with 2000.

One of the things I strongly suggest is never run a deity without proper bodyguards - not simply minions.

My Orcus is CR 28 (and in my opinion a Boss fight for a party of Divine Rank 2 Quasi-deity PCs) . I suggest his Throne Room encounter be:

1 PC: Orcus...+ 1d6 Wraiths
2 PCs: Orcus, a Lich...+ 1d6 Wraiths
3 PCs: Orcus, a Lich, a Balor...+ 1d6 Wraiths
4 PCs: Orcus, a Lich, a Balor, a Nightwalker...+ 1d6 Wraiths
5 PCs: Orcus, a Lich, a Balor, a Nightwalker, a Molydeus...+ 1d6 Wraiths

So whatever your Boss Monster, for each additional PC after the first add a monster roughly equal to one of the PCs...and a few minions.