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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sunseeker" data-source="post: 6061223">I have to question: were any of those classes who gave the ability to use healing surges "leader" or "leader-lite"(like the paladin) classes?When players have high health and available healing, hit them harder, that's how I DM.  If there's an hour of downtime between turns, that's an issue with your players.  Players who don't understand their class, who don't understand the game, who get chatty, take lots of bathroom or smoke breaks.  I'm not arguing combat is faster than in other editions, but I certainly feel like my average 4e battle was much more interesting than my average 3e battle.    Why was it overwhelming?  Were they forgetting to track them?  Sure, if the players are relying on the DM to track conditions, yeah that's a lot of work, but it's not the DM's job to track conditions on your characters, heck, it's not the DM's job to track conditions on NPCs!  The Players need to know what they put on who and how long that lasts.  Well no wonder you find 4e unsatisfying, you took out pretty much everything that was interesting.  Buy an egg-timer if players are taking too much time.  Decisions, regardless of edition take up a lot of time when the player doesn't know their class or doesn't understand their class.  If your players are routinely taking a very long time to do something, you need to sit down with them and help them master their class.  In my first 4e game, we had an egg-timer, 1 minute per turn.  You either learned your class or you walked away.  I learned my class.  So, you're not even actually playing 4e anymore.  You're just making stuff up as you go an using the 4e framework.    I'm not surprised fans of 4e lost a lot of the enjoyment when they found out they weren't playing 4e anymore.Honestly, it just sounds like your group just didn't know their class.</blockquote>

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