Lawful Stupid Paladins (Got your Attention?)

Ilen said:
Does this mean you agree with the idea of attacking overwhelming Evil even if all it does is result in your death? Ambushing? What about holding back from battle instead of just rushing head on with zeal in your eyes? ? And refusing to do anything but enter by bashing down the front door?

I think it all depends on the circumstances. If attacking overwhelming evil results in your death, but a much greater good, then it's appropriate. I believe a paladin can set an ambush and still fight honorably. I believe a paladin with experience and wisdom should be able to temper zeal with prudence. I believe bashing down doors is something only cops and SWAT teams do.

I've written too many thousands of words on paladin ethics and had them fall on deaf ears. If I can't explain it by now, I probably won't ever be able to do so.
 

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I stole this from someone else on the boards. I think it works pretty well.

Actions that may result in a paladin’s punishment:
(1) If the paladin commits rape.

(2) If the paladin purposely violates a lawful order given by proper authority. (rulers, etc.) If the order was unlawful/unjust, or despite being lawful, the disregarding of said orders was appropriate because of information that the paladin has, then no punishment is warranted.

(3) If the paladin purposely, and with malicious intent, murders someone who--

A) Isn't attacking him, or anyone, with deadly force, or credibly threatening to do so. (E.g., drunken old men in the tavern do not count.)

B) The paladin does not have warrant to attack. (No foreknowledge of said villain, dangerous criminal, rebel, or cultist, etc.)

C) A creature, or class of beings that is not generally assumed to be EVIL: e.g., demons, devils, great and terrible monsters (Evil/Chromatic Dragons, Bullettes, Purple Worms, the Tarrasque, etc.), non-intelligent undead, and most intelligent undead. Non-intelligent creatures may safely be slain. Creatures with intelligence of 1 or 2 (for reasons other than ability damage) are animals, and killing them doesn’t constitute murder. However, the paladin respects all life, and only kills such creatures if the pose a “real” threat to the paladin or others, or if needed for food or materials. (Slaughter of animals may be punished to a lesser extent.)

(4) If the paladin is has purposely, maliciously been deceitful for purposes beyond serving an "ultimate good." That is:

(1) Paladins should generally act in a loving manner towards people (Loving being defined as what is ultimately the best for them, expressing the most respect for them as people, wanting the best in life for them, and treating them how you would desire to be treated).

(2) "Always" being totally honest with people can sometimes get people killed, cause the loss of jobs/reputation, or simply really hurt someone’s feelings needlessly. Thus, the paladin should strive to be honest when possible, but he may, and in certain cases should, be dishonest if doing otherwise would cause loss of life, suffering, or unwarranted punishments to befall any creature. He may also exercise tact. He may not be dishonest to serve any greedy or malicious purpose.

(5) If the paladin commits theft of whatever amount or value. Stealing an apple is, in the larger context, dishonorable in the same way that stealing a masterwork greatsword, or whatever. The punishment won't be the same, of course, but the level of disapproval is the same. Stealing may be justifiable only in the name of good (raiding villains’ armories, stealing medicine or food for needy people - only if the paladin cannot otherwise reasonably obtain it).

(6) If the paladin becomes involved in a lifestyle of sexual immorality. For example, if the paladin gets wild one night during celebrations, and enjoys a relationship with a whore, and afterwards, he feels bad about it, feels guilty, enters into prayer, and so on--by himself--no punishment is necessary. Should he do it again, and again, by degree, frequency, and so on, the paladin may receive a vision, have some kind of dream, onwards up to the loss of powers.

(7) If the paladin should act in such a way as to be dishonorable. If the paladin was to shaft a friend, or desert a comrade in need. Or heartlessly ignore the pleadings of innocent people suffering under attack or oppression. For example, should the paladin pretend to offer to parley, only to go ahead and stab the other party, or if the paladin formally gives his word of honor that he will do, or not do, whatever, and then violates it. As an example, a group of Orcs after combat specifically offers to peacefully surrender, if the paladin promises not to kill them, and to treat them well. If the paladin agrees, and then instead tortures them, and executes them, major punishment would come down!

However, if the paladin then escorts the Orc-prisoners and someone of HIGHER AUTHORITY takes control of them, and later executes them, or does any kind of atrocity to them, the paladin in question may be angry, or sad, and may try to save them or whatever, but the paladin isn't held to be guilty at all. He did what he promised. That is keeping his word of honor. Any vicious atrocities committed would be accounted to the person who did them. The paladin isn't responsible for what other people choose to do. He would, let’s say, while escorting the Orc-prisoners, feed them, water them, and protect them, even with his life, from all harm. Until the Orcs be turned over to higher, proper, authority. Proper authority, of course, is empowered to then render an official and binding judgment.

(8) If the paladin should offer sacrifices and offerings to false gods, evil gods, etc. The paladin's
patron god/gods expect faithfulness from such a worshipper who has been so blessed. The paladin may freely give offerings or pray to good or neutral gods who are not his patron deity.

(9) If the paladin should begin a process of attitudes, or adopting philosophies, that are anathema or heretical to the "True Faith." This, while not damnable in one instance, over time represents a form of "spiritual adultery" that will, eventually, bring wrath and judgment down upon the compromising paladin.

(10) If the paladin should take direct actions, or refuse noble duties and requests, out of a sense of greed. Of constantly wanting more and more wealth, of being willing to sacrifice a friend, or the mission, so as the paladin may gain wealth: gold, gems, magic, whatever. Even the prospect of acquiring a Holy Avenger while honorable in itself, acquiring it at the expense of your comrades, or your honor, is thus guilty of getting a "right" thing by the wrong methods, or attitudes.

11.) If the paladin should use poison, unless this is absolutely necessary. A true paladin would consider the undue use of poison cowardly, at best. The use of starvation tactics (e.g. laying siege, cutting off supplies of food/water from troops) is only slightly more tolerable, and the paladin will try to allow enough food and water to ensure that no deaths result, if circumstances permit.

12.) If the paladin ignores requests for help, except in the event that more pressing needs present themselves. Not trying to help a kid being attacked by thugs because he needs to go shopping is bad. If, on the other hand, the paladin is racing against time to save the world and passes by a city that is under attack by a huge Orc army, he is not obligated to help since: 1.) it’s debatable whether or not the one paladin would have made much of a difference, and 2.) if the world blows up, it doesn’t matter whether or not the Orcs took over the city or not.

The paladin may commit minor offenses in extreme circumstances, and to prevent more major ones from occurring. It is generally reasonable, and justifiable, both in a moral sense, and logically, that the acknowledged sacrifice of "some" innocent lives, while prosecuting the struggle against the forces of darkness is while tragic, and regrettable, is nonetheless often unavoidable, and thus generally acceptable. What constitutes a reasonable violation is up to the paladin’s god, and thus the DM. The player is entitled to defend the actions of his paladin, but if the DM afterwards decides that the paladin was still guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, then the matter is closed. Note, however, that it is important to distinguish between "Evil" behaviors/actions, and "foolish/dumb/immature/wrong" behaviors, as they are not the same. The paladin may do many of the latter, and shouldn't be punished, beyond a possible censure or slap on the wrist for repeated behavior. The other in-game consequences of such behavior should be more than enough to teach the character his lesson without losing his powers in addition.
 

babomb said:

C) A creature, or class of beings that is not generally assumed to be EVIL: e.g., demons, devils, great and terrible monsters (Evil/Chromatic Dragons, Bullettes, Purple Worms, the Tarrasque, etc.), non-intelligent undead, and most intelligent undead. Non-intelligent creatures may safely be slain. Creatures with intelligence of 1 or 2 (for reasons other than ability damage) are animals, and killing them doesn’t constitute murder. However, the paladin respects all life, and only kills such creatures if the pose a “real” threat to the paladin or others, or if needed for food or materials. (Slaughter of animals may be punished to a lesser extent.)

This may just be me, but I also think that the Paladin should not whoop up on any 'supposedly evil' member of an 'evil' race. The possibility of Good chromatic dragons, drow, liches, kobolds, etc, and thus a member of this race must atleast be checked with Detect Evil.

Equally, the paladin may not slay the young, or noncombatant of an 'evil' race: No splattering orc children.
 

Xarlen said:


This may just be me, but I also think that the Paladin should not whoop up on any 'supposedly evil' member of an 'evil' race. The possibility of Good chromatic dragons, drow, liches, kobolds, etc, and thus a member of this race must atleast be checked with Detect Evil.

Equally, the paladin may not slay the young, or noncombatant of an 'evil' race: No splattering orc children.

This is dependent on the world you create, though. IMC, kobolds, orcs, etc. lean towards evil, but are not invariably evil. Likewise, dwarves tend toward being good, but not all dwarves are good. I've seen lots of other worlds, however, where all orcs are evil, with no hope of redemption. Not how I play it, but certainly viable, and it does nicely eliminate certain moral quandries.

Cullain
 

JESawyer said:


I think it all depends on the circumstances. If attacking overwhelming evil results in your death, but a much greater good, then it's appropriate. I believe a paladin can set an ambush and still fight honorably. I believe a paladin with experience and wisdom should be able to temper zeal with prudence. I believe bashing down doors is something only cops and SWAT teams do.

I've written too many thousands of words on paladin ethics and had them fall on deaf ears. If I can't explain it by now, I probably won't ever be able to do so.

Okie Dokey. Anyway I think you awnsered my first question, if not in the most direct way.
 

Ilen said:

I want to create a Paladin who is not against ambush tactics and holding back to let the artillery handle things if it is the best method. I want him to flee from that evil if nothing will be gained but the loss of his own life. Is he a Paladin? Or is what I crave simply a LG Cleric/Fighter and I just don't get the ideals of Paladins?

I'm currently playing a Paladin/Cleric of Azuth (Forgotten Realms deity)...Azuth's domains are Illusion, Magic, Knowledge, Law & Spell...my Paladin never lies (but he may allow you to assume something that isn't true, and even give you leading information)...he has no problem suprizing one's enemies, and even using illusions/stealth to do so.

To my mind the whole question is somewhat diety specific...there is another Paladin in my group ( a dwarven paladin of Moradin), it often takes some convincing by his Paladin friend (my character) that winning the day by utilizing somewhat unordodox methods (at least to a dwarven paladin), is just as good and right as charging in the front door.
 

Greetings!

Babomb wrote,
____________________________________________________
Quote:

"I stole this from someone else on the boards. I think it works pretty well."

(Snip)
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

Hmmm...that post seems awfully familiar...:)

I'm glad that you like it so well Babomb.:)

Very interesting post indeed.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
 

The secret to running a good paladin is the code and the DM defining what is evil in their games. Sharks post shows a well devoloped code that can be used in any game. Other codes if defined as well do the same thing.

The defining of evil is just good DMing.
 

1. paladins can back stab Amosdeus. Hey he is bad to the bone. And first shot helps.

2. Paladins gods did not take away his brains when the gifted him with cool powers. The rest of party is fleeing and two are down for the count. Retire heal gain more allies and return.


3. Paladins must follow their code of honor. Have player come up with 3 to 10 things. Or look at the cd for dragon issue around 54. One of the issue had a code for paladins.

4. THOU will remain poor. 90 of you cut goes to the church or to any charity you deem worthy. Your pals ain't.

5.Lie,cheat and steal at YOUR own risk. The CHIEF may fire you.
ex dear peter parker purple paladin
it good that you stole the staff of the arch magi from Eggbert Evil and gave to Goldylocks Good Girl. IT was alright that you gave false directions to Orcus Orcs and they are now still try to pay for their licenese at the DOV. However beating up Angry Andy for his Armor of archery is not right.
Your fired please collect your saddle and tack from Mr. Ed. And watch it he is feeling his oats.
signed
THE BIG CHIEF
 

Perhaps it is a shame that WotC didn't do more to codify paladins codes in game terms with 3e - it was a great opportunity to make it clear.
 

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