Learning permanent metaenhanced spells?

[rgard]

Not if it were a newly research 4th level spell. There's nothing wrong with creating a new spell that is effectively a meta-enhanced version of another spell. If it's a researched spell, it's not longer a meta-enhanced one, and no longer subject to the restrictions on metamagic spells.

Pinotage

Agreed, delayed blast fireball is not a 3rd level with metamagic feats spell. It's a 7th level spell.

The new spell in question would be a 4th level spell.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Hypersmurf]

A fireball spell written on a scroll with something akin to a metamagic FEAT added in the writing is not a fireball spell with the metamagic feat, but a new spell that is an enhanced fireball. You cannot ~write~ a feat down on a scroll.

Magic Items and Metamagic Spells: With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell’s higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn’t need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell.

A scroll of Empowered Fireball is a scroll of the Fireball spell, modified by a metamagic feat. It is not a scroll of a new spell that is not Fireball. The Save DC of the spell will be 14, not 17.

-Hyp.

 

[eamon]

A scroll of Empowered Fireball is a scroll of the Fireball spell, modified by a metamagic feat. It is not a scroll of a new spell that is not Fireball. The Save DC of the spell will be 14, not 17.

That's true - but that's not exactly what's happening here. Here, the caster is scribing it in his spellbook as a 4th level spell, or, if he's a sorcerer, learning it as a spell known as a 4th level spell. He's paying the costs as if it were a 4th level spell, and has none of the flexibility advantages of a 3rd level metamagiced spell. At that point, the question is: is this a spell with a metamagic feat applied - even though you don't know the feat, and certainly aren't applying it actively? Alternatively, is this a new spell through spell research?

Judging by the large number of similar spells whose power differs according to level, it's entirely reasonable to take a spell, make it more powerful, and raise the level. That's what I would consider here, although in general, you probably don't want to follow strictly meta-magic guidelines.

Both options make sense, and you'd choose depending on the situation. A question to ask yourself is, for instance: can the "new" spell be enhanced by the fiery spell metamagic feat? If it can, it looks like a real new spell, if it cannot, it looks like a metamagically enhanced fireball. (Of course certain metamagics - like quicken - are inherently unstackable, yet there are still a multitude of swift spells that are true "new" spells). It all depends on the campaign and the circumstances. If a wizard just found a scroll of empowered fireball, I'd let him scribe fireball but not empowered fireball in his spellbook. If it's an NPC using weird magix, and the DM happens to do that using metamagic, perhaps the new spell approach is more fun.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I've always felt that researching a spell with a metamagic feat 'baked in' is perfectly acceptable under the (rather slim) spell research rules.

Agreed, 100%.

A question to ask yourself is, for instance: can the "new" spell be enhanced by the fiery spell metamagic feat? If it can, it looks like a real new spell, if it cannot, it looks like a metamagically enhanced fireball.

As you hint at, in part it would depend on the exact "baked in" metamagic feat. Something that is already maximized might not be able to be "remaxed" since it has no more variable numeric effects. Others might be so boosted in level as to become Epic, and weak Epic spells at that.

 

[Hypersmurf]

That's true - but that's not exactly what's happening here.

Indeed - I was just taking issue with the assertion that a metamagicked spell can't be scribed on a scroll.

Alternatively, is this a new spell through spell research?

That's what I'd call it. If you want to research a spell that behaves like Magic Missile except that damage is multiplied by 1.5, it's not at all unreasonable to assume that it would be judged a 3rd level spell, since the closest equivalent as an already-existing effect would be Empowered Magic Missile. But you couldn't just add Super Missile to your spellbook just because you have the Empower Spell feat; you'd need to research Super Missile as a new spell.

-Hyp.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But you couldn't just add Super Missile to your spellbook just because you have the Empower Spell feat; you'd need to research Super Missile as a new spell.

Agreed, but it might get you a bonus on your research...

 

[eamon]

Agreed, but it might get you a bonus on your research...

I think I know an appropriate bonus: the fact that you know your research can succeed at all. Per normal rules you need to pay all the research costs in advance and only then learn whether it's an OK spell. You might also lower the research cost or scrap it entirely, if you're feeling particularly generous. Me, I always make my PC's pay an XP cost for this kind of thing. Then again I like offsetting minor bonuses or flaws with XP penalties or bonuses.

 

[Storme]

But it isn't. It's a 3rd level spell with a +1 level metamagic feat.

Cough...3+1 is 4.

That makes it a 4th level spell.

If the idea is that a wizard can scribe a +1 slot metamagic enhanced fireball into his spell book, maintaining its metamagic and still only a 3rd level spell...then NO. That would be called breaking the rules heavily.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Cough...3+1 is 4.

That makes it a 4th level spell.

No, it makes it a 3rd level spell that requires a 4th level slot to cast.

You can still cast it with a key ability of 13; you need 14 to cast a 4th level spell.

Its DC is 10 + 3 + key ability modifier. If it were a 4th level spell, the DC would be 10 + 4 + key ability modifier.

It's suppressed by a Lesser Globe of Invulnerability. If it were a 4th level spell, it wouldn't be.

Except for Heighten Spell, metamagic feats don't change the actual level of the spell; rather, they change the minimum level of the slot they must occupy.

-Hyp.

 

[glass]

I'd answer in two ways

I agree with most of the posters so far -I would allow the wizard to research a new spell that was effectively a lower-level spell with a metamagic feat applied. If the wizard had the had the feat in question, I'd be inclined to give a bonus and/or a discount on the research -although I'd have to reread the research rules before making a final decision.

I'd also allow a spontaneous caster to pre-apply a metamagic feat he had when selecting a spell known, using the modified level on the spells known table. Thereby allowing them to circumvent the FRA but still counting in all other ways as a metamagic spell. It'd instead be a FRA to cast it without the feat applied. This is strictly a houserule though and is in no way supported in the RAW (obviously, this would be irrelevant to wizards etc).


glass.