LEB Discussion Thread '09

[TwoHeadsBarking]

On Expertise, what about those choosing to start at level 1 with a suboptimal race/class? Just throwing it out there

Why would those people take the feat? Clearly they're masochists.

Seriously though, elves have been better archers than dwarves for as long as I've been playing D&D, and dwarves make up for it by being tougher. That's just how the game works.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

Fine with me - I'm playing an elven Str-based paladin with 16 Str in L4W, and he works well enough for me

I'm just playing devil's advocate here for the sake of discussion.

 

[elecgraystone]

And I know not everyone has access to DDI, but I'm kind of inclined to say thats like not including Arcane Power or any other book because someone hasn't bought it.

There is a big difference here. It's not that the people without dragon don't have access to the minotaur race or that the race in MM is unofficial. If they buy the MM hardcover, they then can't play the race. I'm much more in favor of listing changes in the creation thread so that MM uses can still make a minotaur.

And for the record, I CAN'T get DDI/dragon myself. I have to look at a friends dragons. Ever since the transition to pay, my password is messed up and I'm unable to log on. After several months I completely gave up on trying anymore with the service guys. Trained gerbils would have a better idea on how to fix it. As such I don't have the option to buy it unlike the arcane book which I went out to the bookstore and got.

 

[stonegod]

I'm much more in favor of listing changes in the creation thread so that MM uses can still make a minotaur.

Listing the changes risks potential legal trouble (which will be the case w/ anything that comes from a published source if we list the details); there is a difference between listing information on a character sheet and providing details to create the character (the latter WotC has stomped on). it may not be a *big* deal, but something to keep in mind.

And, actually, every race in the MM (or MM2) is unofficial. They are (as stated) primarily to be used for creating NPCs, not PCs. L4W (and LEB) will allow them (w/ some modifications) to be played as PCs, but when a PC-tailored version comes out, I'm inclined to accept that as official.

My MM is not handy, so I cannot check the difference between the two right now. But, if we allow the MM version, oversized will be removed. If you want to play an unnerfed minotaur, ask someone on the boards for details over PM (as that's legally protected).

 

[elecgraystone]

I can't see any legal issues with a listing that says: Replace oversized with Heedless charge. You can't create the character without a WOTC product, the MM. I don't see the issue.

Now I'm all in favor of switching to an the official Minotaur in the PHB3. That way I'll have a hardcover version that supersedes the MM one. The dragon doesn't alter the MM minotaur in the least.

And I'll have to disagree with you saying that 'every race in the MM (or MM2) is unofficial.' They are as official as the dragon PC-races if not more so since hardcovers normally trumps dragons unless it says errata. Optional isn't the same as unofficial.

 

[stonegod]

I can't see any legal issues with a listing that says: Replace oversized with Heedless charge. You can't create the character without a WOTC product, the MM. I don't see the issue.

The racial power that comes w/ the Dragon version could be an issue (or anytime we print out the full version of a power/etc. that hasn't had variables calculated away). Again, its not a huge issue, but its there. Morrus is very clear on avoiding copyright/IP issues, so I tend to make sure we're okay.

And I'll have to disagree with you saying that 'every race in the MM (or MM2) is unofficial.' They are as official as the dragon PC-races if not more so since hardcovers normally trumps dragons unless it says errata. Optional isn't the same as unofficial.

I understand your distinction. They're not "official" (or more semantically appropriate, sanctioned) for RPGA play (whereas Dragon material is sanctioned), for example, and its made clear that they are not the "official" (player-intended) PC write up in the MM/MM2.

The main thing is this: MM monsters are designed for NPCs first, PCs second. As such, they have flaws when applied to PCs. Oversized was mentioned. They also have a paucity of features, and some features are better designed for short term NPCs than long term PCs (Oversized is one; Shifty for kobolds is one mentioned several times).

 

[ukingsken]

And for the record, I CAN'T get DDI/dragon myself. I have to look at a friends dragons. Ever since the transition to pay, my password is messed up and I'm unable to log on. After several months I completely gave up on trying anymore with the service guys. Trained gerbils would have a better idea on how to fix it. As such I don't have the option to buy it unlike the arcane book which I went out to the bookstore and got.

Just as an off topic aside, I had the same problem with wizards, and what I had to end up doing was just create a brand new account under a new email address. That solved the problem in about 20 minutes. But I totally sympathise as for almost the entire couple months leading up to the start of paid subscriptions I had trouble with my password as well (My best guess is it had something to do with the gleemax merging of accounts etc).

That being said I'm in agreeance with stonegod, while the MM races are indeed playable, they are built to be used first for NPC's and then for PC's second. That's why they have so little available content and playtesting until theyre published in another source. Additionally on the topic of sources, since Dragon/Dungeon have been taken in-house by WOTC they are now considered as official as any hard copy publication. That means the Minotaur published in Dragon, by my reckoning was intended to replace the minotaur presented in the MM for PC's. If I were making a minotaur NPC I would still use the MM version, but the way I see things if you want a PC minotaur you need the source for PC minotaurs which is currently the dragon article (issue anyone??).

As for WOTC's stance on reproduction of material I'm not really sure, as I've never dealt or read anything about their policies on that. I'd be inclined to believe however that they're against reproduction of pay to get material just like theyve recently cracked down on digital copies of their books being distributed on websites like scribd (which btw sucked because I own every 4E book WOTC has currently published, and loved being able to have digital copies for ease of transport).

 

[Lord Sessadore]

If the MM race write-ups are going to be included from the get-go, I think it would be a good idea make a note to the effect of, "these races are subject to change when new, specifically player-oriented write-ups are done by WotC, whether in Dragon or a hardcover book."

That way, when such write-ups are done, people can't gripe about getting nerfed or whatnot - they've been warned. If you don't have DDI and won't have the info needed to play the race if it gets done in Dragon, then you should either avoid them or get a 1 month subscription when that Dragon issue comes out. And if you don't want to deal with that issue when it comes up, then don't play a monstrous race that only appears in the MM/MM2. I don't think that's unreasonable, given the amount of headache it can prevent down the road.

I'm just recalling the little mess that was the proposal for the Dragon version of the minotaur in L4W, and I think LEB should learn from that and do what it can to avoid such things in the future. Just removing oversized from bugbears won't cover it - as stonegod mentioned, Shifty for kobolds is probably going to get changed (if not removed outright) when kobolds are done. Any of the other races have the potential to be changed drastically as well, and I think preparations should be made for if/when that happens.

In my opinion, warning players of monstrous characters that they will have to change their race mechanics if/when the race is done in more detail in Dragon/PHBX/a setting book/whatever is something that should be done.

 

[pathfinderq1]

As far as monstrous races go, would the specific issue of Dragon (if appropriate) need to be proposed and voted on, or (since by at least some of the arguments here) would they simply be accepted as 'official' WOTC material once they are published and available? For instance- gnolls (fairly common in Droaam and elsewhere) have a Dragon write-up (in 367). If I want to play a gnoll, would I need to propose to have that issue (or specific article) accepted? If I didn't want to propose, or if the proposal was voted down, would I still be able to use an MM gnoll?

 

[ukingsken]

If the MM race write-ups are going to be included from the get-go, I think it would be a good idea make a note to the effect of, "these races are subject to change when new, specifically player-oriented write-ups are done by WotC, whether in Dragon or a hardcover book."

That way, when such write-ups are done, people can't gripe about getting nerfed or whatnot - they've been warned. If you don't have DDI and won't have the info needed to play the race if it gets done in Dragon, then you should either avoid them or get a 1 month subscription when that Dragon issue comes out. And if you don't want to deal with that issue when it comes up, then don't play a monstrous race that only appears in the MM/MM2. I don't think that's unreasonable, given the amount of headache it can prevent down the road.

I'm just recalling the little mess that was the proposal for the Dragon version of the minotaur in L4W, and I think LEB should learn from that and do what it can to avoid such things in the future. Just removing oversized from bugbears won't cover it - as stonegod mentioned, Shifty for kobolds is probably going to get changed (if not removed outright) when kobolds are done. Any of the other races have the potential to be changed drastically as well, and I think preparations should be made for if/when that happens.

In my opinion, warning players of monstrous characters that they will have to change their race mechanics if/when the race is done in more detail in Dragon/PHBX/a setting book/whatever is something that should be done.

That would work, and I think that from here on out it would avoid any of this type of confusion. If everyone knows upfront there isn't a whole lot of room to gripe later.

And you're totally right, most if not all of the MM races are going to receive treatment elsewhere eventually, even if its just to make feats available to them.