LEB Discussion Thread '09

[stonegod]

Thanks for the prompt response stonegod. Where would I go to discuss the possibility of a online-only, ENWorld-community driven living style game, Eberron or otherwise?

Either Talking the Talk, General, or the Gamers Seeking Gamers forums.

 

[Theroc]

PbP is online only... isn't it?

Is there some special element I'm missing here?

 

[stonegod]

PbP is online only... isn't it?

Is there some special element I'm missing here?

Likely something more like OpenRPG (a virtual gaming table).

 

[CaBaNa]

Alright, after looking it up, and reading lots and lots of threads...

Storm Pillar, as a conjuration, can be summoned mid-air. It does NOT hover, fly, or move at all. It stays where it was conjured. PHB2 pg 220.

Storm Pillar, may or may not trigger off forced movement, the contentious issue here is the wording. Storm Pillars key sentence, "Each enemy that moves into a square adjacent to the pillar" is very similar to Wall of Fire's key sentence " If a creature moves into the wall’s space", which the dev's officially said triggers damage.

The issue is NOT "would the enemy take damage?", but "has the enemy moved?".
PHB pg 285 qualifies forced movement as "Not a Move: Forced movement doesn't count against a target's ability to move on its turn. A target's speed is irrelevant to the distance you move it." So it's not a "Move Action", however it has "moved" into the space.

My interpretation is as follows;

Storm Pillar may be placed mid-air, and it will stay where it is placed (It will NOT hover, fly, or take any other move action...). Storm Pillar triggers off forced movement, however as per PHB pg 286, for each square the enemy would enter they would get a chance to "Catch" themselves. (Info on Catching Yourself on PHB pg 284, it's basically a saving throw)

Also, if an AP is spent, to place two storm pillars, and an enemy moves into the overlapping threatening squares, they take double damage as it is from differing sources. They also get 2 saving throws, and if either succeed, they do not enter the area.


This took me a while to find all the parts and pieces in the rules... Not to mention the amount of time spent reading other forums trying to find a clear answer...

 

[TwoHeadsBarking]

The Storm Pillar is neither precipice not pit. It does not create hazardous terrain. Why would they get a save?

 

[KarinsDad]

My interpretation is as follows;

That's more or less it.

Storm Pillar is a bit overrated. It's most powerful effect is that it is a restraining power if placed directly over a foe's head.

For example:

. . .
. E .
. . .

If the effect is placed directly about the enemy E's square, then E cannot move at all (shy of teleport) without taking auto damage of D6+Int. There is no to hit roll.

But, E can just sit there calmly and not move if he has a ranged attack.

But to do this restraint, the Wizard gave up the opportunity to actually damage E or anyone else (on the other hand, certain Brutes and other foes do not have ranged attacks, so it is often autohit or autorestraint against them).


As for sliding foes into the effect, that's a bit problematic as well. 55% of the time, each foe will fall prone in a square outside of the hazardous effect before being slid in.

So, a 45% chance of doing damage (which is typically lower than a Wizard's normal 60% chance of doing damage) plus prone if no damage is done.


But with 4E's design goal (at least in the adventure modules) to have larger areas to fight in combined with diagonal squares requiring a single move, there will be many times where the control is limited because foes can merely move around the effect. But, it's still control.

It matches the Wizard's role of a controller very well. But, it is far from the best first level At Will Wizard power because the ultimate control is by killing the foe (or rendering him unconscious/stunned), not restraining him.

It is, however, the best first level At Will controlling Wizard power and works well with Thunderwave or other forced movement powers.

Also, if an AP is spent, to place two storm pillars, and an enemy moves into the overlapping threatening squares, they take double damage as it is from differing sources. They also get 2 saving throws, and if either succeed, they do not enter the area.

I'm not so sure of this. I don't see anywhere in the PHB or DMG that multiple effects in hindering terrain give multiple saving throws, it's based on the unsafe square, not each effect.

The foe doesn't want to go in that square, so as far as I can tell, he only gets one chance at stopping himself from being moved into it. He doesn't get better at avoiding going into the square, just because there are two effects in the square.

Do you have a rules quote for this?

He does, however, take damage from both effects if he is forced in.

 

[KarinsDad]

The Storm Pillar is neither precipice not pit. It does not create hazardous terrain. Why would they get a save?

DMG page 44

Targets of forced movement in hindering terrain (pits, precipices, fire) can avoid plunging into a pit or over the edge of a cliff or being pushed into a raging fire. The creature makes a saving throw rolled immediately before entering the unsafe square, with success leaving the creature prone at the edge of the precipice.

Note: like all saving throws, the creature is not forced to make a save and can choose to go into the unsafe square.

 

[stonegod]

Ug: The hindering terrain debate again. There was another power over in L4W that folks were arguing about whether Storm Pillar actually creates such terrain (its not a zone, it doesn't say it does, etc, etc.). I forget the specifics other than the bad taste the debate left in my mouth.

Conjurations can be done mid-air RAW.

 

[KarinsDad]

Ug: The hindering terrain debate again. There was another power over in L4W that folks were arguing about whether Storm Pillar actually creates such terrain (its not a zone, it doesn't say it does, etc, etc.). I forget the specifics other than the bad taste the debate left in my mouth.

It's not much of a debate. If a foe knows that the square is unsafe on his own turn, then he also knows it is unsafe during forced movement. If a foe does not know that the square is unsafe on his own turn, then he also does not know it is unsafe during forced movement.

So the question comes down to: Does the foe know if the square is unsafe on his turn? I'm fairly sure that most DMs would say that he does, the alternative is just plain silly to adjudicate enemy actions and invalidates the entire purpose of a control power. What good is a control power that affects squares that foes don't know to avoid? That's a damage power, not a control power.

But then again, when people debate on the boards, they come up with the craziest rationales.

 

[hornedturtle]

If the movement is forced then why does he get a save to avoid the space? Wouldn't an enemy want to avoid any forced movement and concider any space forced into "dangerous"?