Legal target for active spell changes to illegal target

[Quasqueton]

So what is the agreed upon (haha) rule of magic on an "illegal" target?

Does a target have to be "legal" only at the time of casting? Or does the spell constantly run a check for "legality"?

In my last game, the PC dwarf monk was blind by the blindness spell {Target: One living creature). He was later killed, and rose as an undead. I ruled that the blindness spell dispelled because he was no longer a valid target for it. Was this right?

I'm fine with the ruling, and I can't think of a situation where it would be a problem (versus having "legality" checked only at casting). But perhaps you've experienced situations where this would be a problem?

Quasqueton

 

[Len]

But perhaps you've experienced situations where this would be a problem?

Yeah, whenever a druid casts Shillelagh on his club.

 

[Quasqueton]

Yeah, whenever a druid casts Shillelagh on his club.

And what happens?

Quasqueton

 

[Len]

The club becomes magical, so it's no longer valid to cast Shillelagh on! Which makes it a pretty darn useless spell if you rule that way.

 

[Starglim]

Tricky. On reflection, I think that:

• the magic continues to operate for its duration (in this case, permanently until dispelled) regardless if the subject changes to an illegal target. However
• in this case the undead is immune to the spell effect since it is an effect that allows a Fortitude save.

So the undead dwarf is not blind, but the blindness spell is still operational and the creature would be blind again if it changed to a type that could be affected by a blindness spell.

 

[TDRandall]

Not having searched for actual rules that might apply, nor taking the time to think through all of the repercussions, I lean towards letting all effects dissipate harmlessly at the target's death.

Otherwise, you've got any number of remains lying about with spell effects lingering on them just in case they return to life somehow. You could even conceivably have the odd graveyard or battlefield or some other general area that lit up like a Christmas tree when detect magic was cast, but which neither had magic goodies to claim nor threats to ward against. Final (if dissapointing) explanations might come only with a high DC bardic knowledge roll or commune-like spell!

So in this case, the dwarf is not affected and if he somehow returns to life he is also not blinded. Now, of course, I can see some enterprising party deciding to kill and then raise a friend just to get rid of those nasty effects from long lasting spells (pesky geas? Sorry Dave - sneak attack, then coup de gras if necessary!). Toss in a posession by an evil entity or a quick turn-to-undead scenario, something to really make this a bad choice, if the other limits of return-to-life spells aren't enough.

Does anyone have a reason why blindness is "permanent" rather than "instantaneous"? I don't see any sort of "heal blindness" in the SRD, so perhaps it's just to allow a later counterspell. Or trying to be consistent with other situations that cause blindness (Holy Aura on evil creatures, maybe a flash of light) where the effect later wears off?

IANARL. Where's our friendly little blue guy when you need him to provide rules wisdom?

*Urgently casts "Summon Hypersmurf!"*

 

[Hypersmurf]

IANARL. Where's our friendly little blue guy when you need him to provide rules wisdom?

*Urgently casts "Summon Hypersmurf!"*

Well, I've been using the Shillelagh example for nearly five years now.

As far as I'm concerned, if you cast Hold Person on an orc, and then Polymorph him into an ogre, he's still paralyzed and frozen in place. The only place 'humanoid' is specified is in the Target line, and you choose your target at the instant the spell comes into effect. (If it specified humanoid in the spell text as well, it might be trickier.) So even though he's now a giant, he's already affected by the spell. Similarly, if he dies, he still radiates an aura of enchantment until the duration of the spell expires.

As for Blindness, it can be removed by Dispel Magic, for example. If it were instantaneous, that wouldn't work.

-Hyp.

 

[Diirk]

I'm not sure spells do end when you die. This quote is from Raise Dead:

A raised creature has a number of hit points equal to its current Hit Dice. Any ability scores damaged to 0 are raised to 1. Normal poison and normal disease are cured in the process of raising the subject, but magical diseases and curses are not undone. While the spell closes mortal wounds and repairs lethal damage of most kinds, the body of the creature to be raised must be whole. Otherwise, missing parts are still missing when the creature is brought back to life. None of the dead creature’s equipment or possessions are affected in any way by this spell.

Of course it only references magical diseases and curses, but I wouldn't think Blindness/Deafness would be so different from Bestow Curse in that regards (apart from the whole dispell vs Remove Curse thing)

 

[robberbaron]

I agree with the blue guy.
As long as the target was legal at the time of casting it continues to be affected for the spell's duration, even if it dies.

 

[the Jester]

As usual, I too am in agreement with Hypersmurf.

Shillelagh is a great example, as is the polymorphing example. I'm sure that there are more that someone could think of- for instance, if a charmed person polymorphs into a non-humanoid do they stay charmed? I'd say yes.