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Legends and Lore - The Temperature of the Rules

Except if it resembles any earlier edition of D&D, it won't permit lopsided combat ability.
Not sure where this came from. I have no opinion for now other to say that there are different perspectives on combat ability throughout all editions.

I'm very confient that they won't capture that market while the rules permit lopsided non-combat ability but don't permit lopsided combat ability.
Careful, there is at least one mod with a tendency to nitpick people who make "very confident" assumptions about the market without evidence to back yourself up :)

And it is that difference between the two that I think makes it hard to treat the rules in 3E/PF in a consistently simulationist fashion. Simulationist hit points leads to hit points as meat - which is fine, I guess, for some games, but it's odd (to me, at least) that a wizard with so much meat still has trouble knocking down wooden doors.
I suspect that a dual track of 1) hit points = morale, stamina, fortunet, superficial cuts, etc. and 2) vitality/wound track = serious wounds that need healing, would alleviate that. It's modular too, because take away #2 and you have your 4E D&D. Again, the point is that you don't get to decide what's simulationist or not -- you only have to find a sweet spot in the rules for flexibility/modularity vs ease of use and fun. By sheer coincidence, Mearls and Monte have been discussing exactly this the whole time!

If I was on the "Lore" design committee, the game would look like a classic purist-for-system simulationist game - RQ, Traveller or (the one I have the most experience with) RM. It therefore wouldn't look very much like 3E or PF, neither of which (in my view) does purist-for-system very well.
I'd be open-minded for anything.

TL;DR - if "Lore" will force my epic wizard to get better at fisticuffs, in what way is it meeting the design goals you've specified?
Please clarify?
 

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TL;DR - if "Lore" will force my epic wizard to get better at fisticuffs, in what way is it meeting the design goals you've specified?
OK, I think I get it. I wrote before that I thought D&D was stereotyping heroes as being great in combat, but because there was so much combat in D&D, that I didn't think it was an unfair stereotype. Also, one thing that 4E did for me was remind me that wizards aren't weak scrawny mages, they are Gandalf with a sword. I think Lore has to compromise between assumptions and flexibility. I think anything is possible mechanically, but adventures are built with some default assumptions. If a player builds a scholarly wizard, they have to realize that D&D will probably chew and spit them out. That they're putting their weak wizard into a precarious situation. That scholarly wizards stay in their tower and increase in power in non-adventuring ways. Nevertheless, the system would allow the player to build a combat poor PC. Natural selection will take care of it. Or maybe the DM runs a few sessions with non-adventuring types Call of Cthulhu style. The point is that "Lore" trust the DMs and players, doesn't coddle them. It shows you a cliff and says you probably don't want to go too close to the edge, but it doesn't actually put up a railing except by social contract. Again, the mature/advanced label.

In short, the assumptions of non-lopsided combat ability are built into published adventures and encounter design, NOT into the rules for character creation.

Edit: I would also clarify that the rules should offer builds and themes that act as a template for combat optimal PC creation. In this way, the player doesn't feel helpless create a standard PC. Alternatively, offer class rules and allow the player to deviate from that if they really, really want to.
 
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3e was a tighter system, sure. But the growth pattern from OD&D, 1e, 2e, and onwards is pretty obvious.
If we're talking about the 'codification of rules' (or systemization) particularly the expectations of 'complex-tactical combat' in the D&D context, being that it grew out of a war game (as you noted), why then was the first version of the game the *least* complex and most open in rules, including those for combat?

I maintain that it is because in the evolution from war game to role-playing game a fundamental line was crossed, in which the war game referee took on a wholly new, unique position that was core to the entire experience, above and beyond any written rules.

The core of a role-playing game are the participants acting and reacting to each other, including the dungeon master, and his adjudications of in-game improvised actions are fundamentally what the 'rules' of the game are. The overall experience will be guided by written rules in their role as written guidelines but the game becomes a type of living thing in the hands of the participants, and it is this interaction of refereee/dungeon master and the players that makes it such a special game-form.
 

It's simulationist if the group believes in what the mechanics are doing. So D&D may be simultationist for some gamers based on what they've seen in movies, but other gamers who study medieval warfare and compare longsword vs katana damage find it very unsimulationist.

You can simulate action movies, and you can simulate real medieval combat. Both approaches are equally simulationist.

Why can not both groups agree that game X (action movie) and game Y (actual combat) are trying to simulate different things, then express their preference for the kind of game they want to play? Neither preference is superior, and neither is necessarily based on knowledge or lack of knowledge.

I may know quite a lot about real medieval combat, yet prefer to play an action-movie D&D game, for instance. I certainly don't want to play a D&D game that realistically models the actual consequences of violence.
 

Why can not both groups agree that game X (action movie) and game Y (actual combat) are trying to simulate different things, then express their preference for the kind of game they want to play? Neither preference is superior, and neither is necessarily based on knowledge or lack of knowledge.

I may know quite a lot about real medieval combat, yet prefer to play an action-movie D&D game, for instance. I certainly don't want to play a D&D game that realistically models the actual consequences of violence.
I don't disagree with anything you stated. The issue of knowledge may simply sharpen or change the expections of what should be simulated or not.
 

Perhaps more specifically (I'm not sure), that the designers didn't seem to care that someone would even conceive of the idea of making a character without that +15 bonus (even though gamers were doing it in systems like 3.X, still are, and probably always will be)
I'm absolutely certain that they could conceive of it. The proof is that these same people did it on other games. But, beyond that, there are quotes from them promoting this change.

I don't claim RPG design is remotely this simple, but for the topic at hand there are two major options.
A) Think of a narrative and build mechanics which model that and keep them as balanced as you can.
B) Build mechanics which are balanced and then make up narrative justifications for those mechanics.

One of the big fundamental changes between prior editions of D&D and 4E is the move from A to B.

It was a conscious choice which they thought would grow their fan base.

It would be silly to claim that either A or B are right or wrong for a random specific game group.

But I do think it is very wrong to claim that going from one to the other doesn't dramatically change the fundamental nature of the game experience. (And, just for the record, unless my memory is way off pemerton has clearly stated that he agrees that it is a fundamental change). A complication comes in because I firmly believe that A is vastly moire flexible than B. So much so that it is absolutely possible to play A in a manner that feels the style of B. So it is completely reasonable to say "4E plays EXACTLY like 3E, only with a lot of major problems fixed". However, the person saying that need to realize that the statement needs to include "... for my play style and this may not be at all true for your play style."
 

OK, I think I get it.
Yes, you do.

I wrote before that I thought D&D was stereotyping heroes as being great in combat, but because there was so much combat in D&D, that I didn't think it was an unfair stereotype.

<snip>

I think Lore has to compromise between assumptions and flexibility. I think anything is possible mechanically, but adventures are built with some default assumptions.

<snip>

The point is that "Lore" trust the DMs and players, doesn't coddle them. It shows you a cliff and says you probably don't want to go too close to the edge, but it doesn't actually put up a railing except by social contract.

<snip>

In short, the assumptions of non-lopsided combat ability are built into published adventures and encounter design, NOT into the rules for character creation.
The first two paras in what I've quoted are frequently asserted by 4e players as well, only with "adventuring" in place of combat. I think, in this thread, it was [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION] who said that a high level wizard has done a lot of adventuring, and therefore gets better at it (including +15 to open doors). And I made the point that I think the 4e designers were motivated not by ignorance of lopsided builds, but by a view that they wanted the rules to exclue them in order to make adventures work.

And if the thoughts in the second two paras that I've quoted are right, they seem to be as applicable to combat as to skills. (I think - more on this below.)

All versions of D&D, including 4e, have used distinctive action resolution mechanics for combat. But 4e, with its non-lopsidedness in both skills and combat, comes the closest to uniformity across combat and skills on the character building side. I'm arguing that if "Lore" is to meet your design specs, it needs to come closer to 4e in respect of this uniformity (to avoid the "stereotyping"/forcing that you are objecting to in 4e) but presumably via points rather than level scaling (to permit the possibility of lopsidedness that you want).

All that said, I can think of three reasons to differentiate combat and skills in respect of permissible lopsidedness.

One would be that combat is (potentially) lethal for PCs in a way that door-opening is not, and so a playable game really does require a minimum buffer on every PC. My own view is that "Lore" might do better to look at ways of making losing at combat less guaranteed to be lethal (this ties into the Roles thread!).

A second would be that combat is such a ubiquitous element of play, compared to other adventuring challenges, that a playable game requires all PCs to be able to participate in combat even if they suck at opening doors. My own view is that this is probably true for most D&D play, but on the other hand the 4e critics have tended to attack 4e for relying on a similar thought to justify the intricacy of its combat action resolution compared to its non-combat action resolution.

A third woud that "D&D has alwasy done it this way".

I think that a "Lore" built on the basis of the second or third of these reasons is pretty unlikely to pick up simulationist/immersive players of the classic simulationist rulesets. But a Lore built as I'm urging, in defiance of the first reason and permitting lopsided combat builds and making the action resolution rules to some extent tolerant of them (as they are tolerant of lopsided non-combat builds), would be pretty different in feel from what D&D has tended to be, I think.

A separate point about lopsidedness, which [MENTION=54877]Crazy Jerome[/MENTION] has mentioned (I think) with reference to Burning Wheel - the more narrow the gap across expected DCs, the easier lopsidedness is to cope with both in world design and adventure design. (BW has other features to make lopsidedness work, too, like giving players a strong mechanical incentive, via its advancement rules, to try challenges at which their PCs have no chance of success.)

But D&D, especially since 3E, has emphasised big gaps across high and low level PCs, and big gaps in expected DCs in the gameworld, between mundane DC 15 doors and heavenly DC 40 doors. This makes lopsidedness a bigger problem in adventure design and execution. It also, in my view, puts more pressure on the verisimilitude of lopsidedness. It's one thing to have my scrawny wizard adventuring with Conan. But what is my scrawny wizard doing hanging out with Heracles in the heavens, in danger of getting squashed by any wandering inhabitant? I think this is the thought that 4e relies on to make scaling rules, designed in the first instance with playability in mind, nevertheless fit roughly into a verisimilitudinous high fantasy world. (And it needs to be remembered that 4e still permits a high degree of lopsidedness, because of the role that training, feats, items and stats play in skill bonuses. It's just not lopsidedness to the extent of scrawny mage hanging out with Heracles.)

To conclude: while noting your caution about predicting the market!, I'll make a prediction anyway. A "Lore" edition that distinguishes between combat and non-combat as far as lopsidedness is concerned, and that permits scrawny wizards to hang out in heaven with Heracles, looks to me not so much like a generally targetted simulationist edition, but an edition aimed at the particular sensibilities of 3E/PF players. Which is fine as far as it goes, but I think raises the issue of "why will those players switch from what they're playing?" And this is where I think the sandboxing idea has some merit.

My own preferred "Lore" edition, on the other hand, is closer to genuine purist-for-system simulation. But can such a game be built that will have widespread traction with 3E/PF players? I don't know, but I do have doubts. I think that some of those elements of 3E/PF that depart from purist-for-system ideals may be precisely what those players are looking for.
 

I don't claim RPG design is remotely this simple, but for the topic at hand there are two major options.
A) Think of a narrative and build mechanics which model that and keep them as balanced as you can.
B) Build mechanics which are balanced and then make up narrative justifications for those mechanics.

One of the big fundamental changes between prior editions of D&D and 4E is the move from A to B.

<snip>

(And, just for the record, unless my memory is way off pemerton has clearly stated that he agrees that it is a fundamental change). A complication comes in because I firmly believe that A is vastly moire flexible than B. So much so that it is absolutely possible to play A in a manner that feels the style of B.
I agree that 4e is fundamentally different in mechanical design from earlier editions of D&D (although this and some other recent threads are also giving me a better idea of how different 3E is from classic D&D).

I don't agree with your A to B analysis, though. My view is that pre-4e editions of D&D are designed assuming roughly simulationist mechanics (ie mechanics model the internal causal logic of the gameworld) though with puzzling additional features like hit points and universally scaling saving throws (and it's noteworthy that these were the two AD&D mechanics that generated apologies from Gygax for their non-simulationist character). The non-simulationist accretions provide some guarantees as to fictional outcomes (eg a degree of plot protection for PCs), but on the whole the mechanics provide no guarantee of, in play, generating a story with any particular thematics or dynamic.

4e is designed, rougly, to determine fictional outcomes via its mechanics, but to permit a much looser fit between fictional and mechanical process. In some mechanics (eg skill challenges) it expressly confers authority on who gets to narrate the fictional process (a GM, in the case of a skill challenge). In others, it leaves it open how the table arrives at a shared account of events in the fictin (eg Come and Get It). (The technical term for this sort of action resolution is fortune-in-the-middle.) The mechanics are also designed to generate a certain dynamic, and (in my view, at least) the integration of mechanical and story elements also strongly suppots generating strong thematics (provided one is looking to play within a reasonably conventional range of fantasy tropes and themes).

Nor do I agree that it is easy, or even generally possible, to play A so as to deliver the B experience. Simulationist mechanics offer no promise of story (in the technical sense, of having dramatic dynamics and thematic content). This is why games which used simulationist mechanics but wanted to deliver story - like (some versions of) 2nd ed AD&D, Storyteller, etc - have instructions to the GM to suspend or override the action resolution mechanics from time to time in the interests of the story. 4e does not need such an instrution (despite the retrograde step in Essentials of including it), because its action resolution mechanics will reliably deliver story (in the relevant sense) just by being used.

One way in which A can be played so as to come closer to delivering B is mid-to-high level Rolemaster (and I suspect name level and above D&D), because - provided the players are on board - they can use the "narrative control" magic that PCs of those levels enjoy to collaborate with the GM in scene-framing. But while this can solve some issues of pacing between scenes (in my last high level Rolemaster campaign, liberal use of group Time Stop magic worked wonders for this), it doesn't help with pacing during scenes, which I know from experience is a big issue in Rolemaster.

TL;DR - people who switch from Rolemaster to 4e, or from Runquest to HeroQuest, aren't just confused about the possibilities attainable within those various systems. They know what they're doing.
 

I think, in this thread, it was [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION] who said that a high level wizard has done a lot of adventuring, and therefore gets better at it (including +15 to open doors).

I go more with an accumulation of personal power, akin to Highlander's Quickening - by Epic Tier the PCs aren't merely skilled adventurers, they are virtual demigods. So for me it's not just about PCs getting more skilled at things they do a lot - that works well for Runequest, but not for D&D.
 

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