Legends and Lore: Uber Feats eat Prestige classes and Paragon Paths or give +1 to ability

[pemerton]

[MENTION=49017]Bluenose[/MENTION], is that +5 for 20 stat against DC 20 = 10 + 5 stat + 5 class bonus?

We need a bit more bounded accuracy!

 

[Bluenose]

@Bluenose, is that +5 for 20 stat against DC 20 = 10 + 5 stat + 5 class bonus?

We need a bit more bounded accuracy!

That's the one. It does assume that the Wizard has tried to get 20 Int, which is not exactlly unreasonable given the opportunity to do so and the benefits involved.

 

[Li Shenron]

[MENTION=49017]Bluenose[/MENTION], is that +5 for 20 stat against DC 20 = 10 + 5 stat + 5 class bonus?

We need a bit more bounded accuracy!

Got me thinking...

The issue is that the spells success rate is too high because over 20 levels spellcasters go up to DC 20 while targets of their spells go up to only 15 average roll?

...but we don't want to remove the stat bonus to spells DC because we want smarter wizards to be better...

...and we don't want to remove the level bonus to spells DC because we want more experienced wizards to be better...

...and personally I don't want to also add level-based ST bonuses (another thing to keep track of) just to make things match...

...how about then simply changing the 10 base with a 5?

Spells DC: 5 + stat + class bonus

 

[Falling Icicle]

They should just remove the class spellcasting bonus from save DCs. If saving throws don't improve with level, save DCs shouldn't either.

 

[Bluenose]

[MENTION=1465]Li Shenron[/MENTION] That makes saving throws really easy to make at low level. Which doesn't help the Wizard when they're at their weakest. And it still leaves higher level casters with the ability to target weak saves and have the majority of their spells work.

 

[Li Shenron]

[MENTION=1465]Li Shenron[/MENTION] That makes saving throws really easy to make at low level. Which doesn't help the Wizard when they're at their weakest.

I know... How bad is it really, in a game where wizards have infinite Ray of Frost or similar cantrips?

Compare with weapon attacks, which have stat bonus and level-based attack bonus, rolled against AC which has Dex bonus + some extra from armor.

Both weapon attacks and spells DC scale in the same way i.e. stat + level bonus.

Notice the pattern with the total bonus to AC when wearing an armor, which is less than the sum Dex+armor:

- it can be up to 16 (18 with shield) when you are poor
- it can be up to 17 (19 with shield) if you can afford 500gp
- it can be up to 18 (20 with shield) if you can afford 5000gp

Saves can be up to +5 ie average 15.

Even in the worst case, a spell has a higher chance of success than a weapon attack.

Of course spells are few, weapon attacks are unlimited.

On the other hand, spells can have much more dramatic effects than weapon attacks (unless the latter are done with magic weapons that have dramatic effects too, or with some dramatic class feature added on top e.g. smite evil but in which case also often require a ST).

Maybe there's some better way to consider, maybe saving throws could be also benefit from certain types of non-magical equipment.

 

[Cyberen]

Remove level bonus to DC.
Competence is already taken into account through the stat bonus (which can increase with level).
Then, you can have feats that give DC increase for some spells (say +2 to fire based magic, or necromancy or whatever) so that stat increase is not a no-brainer for every caster. You have to be careful to prevent feat bonuses from stacking, though.

 

[Blackwarder]

Remove level bonus to DC.
Competence is already taken into account through the stat bonus (which can increase with level).
Then, you can have feats that give DC increase for some spells (say +2 to fire based magic, or necromancy or whatever) so that stat increase is not a no-brainer for every caster. You have to be careful to prevent feat bonuses from stacking, though.

But than you might make ability increase mandatory to the spell casting classes that already got fewer ability increases than non spell casters...

Personally I think that the 1-5 ability bonus is to high. IMO, it should be 0-3 or 0-4 with a bell curve distribution of the bonuses.

Warder

 

[Dausuul]

Remove level bonus to DC.
Competence is already taken into account through the stat bonus (which can increase with level).

I agree. Spells already scale by having more potent effects at higher levels; they don't need to get more "accurate" as well.

Then, you can have feats that give DC increase for some spells (say +2 to fire based magic, or necromancy or whatever)...

Ick! No! Begone, fiend! This is the quintessential Boring Bonus Feat that turned 3E and 4E into bloatfests. D&DN shouldn't have any such thing. If you want to increase the save DCs of your spells, you invest in Intelligence (or Wisdom, or Charisma, as appropriate). If not, not.

 

[Blackwarder]

Here are some things I would like to see as feats in D&DNext:

Apostasy: The character has learned knowledge forbidden tohis order. He may select 4 divine spells not normally available toworshippers of his god and add them to his repertoire.

Bargaining (G): The character gets the best deals availablefor goods, services, and information. Any items the characterpurchases costs 10% less than the listed price and any itemshe sells go for 10% more than the listed price. If both thebuyer and seller have the Bargaining proficiency, the opposedBargainers should make reaction rolls. Whichever characterscores the higher result gets the discount. A character may selectBargaining multiple times if desired. Each time the proficiencyis selected, the character receives a +2 bonus on his reaction rollwhen negotiating with other bargainers.

Alertness: The character gains a +4 bonus on any proficiencythrows to hear noises and detect secret doors. With a proficiencythrow of 18+ he can notice secret doors with just casualobservation. He gains a +1 bonus to avoid surprise.

Command: The character has mastered the art of command.His authority inspires men to follow him into danger. Thecharacter’s henchmen and mercenaries receive a +2 bonusto morale.

Contemplation: The character may enter a meditative tranceand re-gain the ability to cast a spell of a level he had previouslyexpended. Contemplation requires one hour (6 turns) ofundisturbed meditation. A character may not regain the samelevel of spell more than once per day through contemplation.

Dwarven Brewing: The character knows the secrets of thefamed beer and ale of the dwarves. Because of his familiaritywith mixology, he may make a proficiency throw of 11+ todetermine the magical properties of a potion or oil on taste.He gains a +4 bonus to proficiency throws to craft alcoholicbeverages.

Passing Without Trace: The character leaves no sign of hispassing over wilderness terrain, and may not be tracked. Forevery 3 levels of experience, the character may cover the tracksof an additional traveling companion.

Anyone who can tell where I lifted those from will win the honor of paying for my flight to GenCon

Warder