• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

Legends and Lore: Uber Feats eat Prestige classes and Paragon Paths or give +1 to ability

While I was always against feats being optional since it lead to things like the Human ability score modifiers being too good, I'm skeptical with this approach to feats. First of all how often do feats come to certain classes? Some could get them every level (though I doubt any will). Another thing I don't like about this is that it'll probably remove automatic ability increases, which with the +1 to 2 abilities is simply going to leave a lot of characters Single-Ability Dependant, instead of better rounded, as once the main ability reaches 20, many will see very little reason to increase the other ones.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

So you're this Fighter guy (or gall) and you adventure some, level up, the usual. Your Strength score started at 16 but now after some feat-choices you managed to get it to 19. Yeah! Progression!

And then in the next treasure hoard you find a girdle of hill giant strength.

Where is your god now?
 

It looks to me that if feats are doing similar things to class abilities, but you have a choice, then we are getting 4E powers (in a sense) with new names.
 

So you're this Fighter guy (or gall) and you adventure some, level up, the usual. Your Strength score started at 16 but now after some feat-choices you managed to get it to 19. Yeah! Progression!

And then in the next treasure hoard you find a girdle of hill giant strength.

Where is your god now?

This made me laugh, and it's so very true. Sadly, can't XP you again.
 


So you're this Fighter guy (or gall) and you adventure some, level up, the usual. Your Strength score started at 16 but now after some feat-choices you managed to get it to 19. Yeah! Progression!

And then in the next treasure hoard you find a girdle of hill giant strength.

Where is your god now?

As opposed to the old ways of spending your class slots on extra new languages, and then finding a Helm of Comprehend Languages in the next hoard? Or spending skill points on the Climb skill and then finding Boots of Spider Climb in the next hoard? Or selecting Fireball as one of your two new spells you learn when you level up, only to find a Scroll of Fireball in the next hoard to scribe into your spellbook? :)

There are many reasons to not like new game designs... but the idea that there's a magic item that could "render them irrelevant" isn't one of them.
 

As opposed to the old ways of spending your class slots on extra new languages, and then finding a Helm of Comprehend Languages in the next hoard? Or spending skill points on the Climb skill and then finding Boots of Spider Climb in the next hoard? Or selecting Fireball as one of your two new spells you learn when you level up, only to find a Scroll of Fireball in the next hoard to scribe into your spellbook? :)

There are many reasons to not like new game designs... but the idea that there's a magic item that could "render them irrelevant" isn't one of them.

First of all, please don't tell me which of my reasons is legit. You have no authority whatsoever over this.

Second, your examples are flawed. A Scroll of Fireball can still be used simply to cast an extra Fireball on top of your daily slots. A helm that lets you understand languages doesn't let you speak them.

Third, a couple of skill points is cheaper than a feat/attribute choice. A feat selection is a hefty cost, and several of them at once even more so.

Fourth, a girdle of giant strength is uniquely useful for Strength-based classes (Fighters, Barbarians, etc.), who also happen to be the people who already upped their Strength score (naturally). This assures that the people who most benefit from an item are also the ones who are most likely to suffer this drawback. But a helmet of understanding languages? Man, anybody can use that. And if one guy happens to already be the polyglot then somebody else can wear the helmet as a sort of inferior backup (remember, you don't get to speak any more languages).
 

I'll reserve final judgement until I see it. Let's face it: Mearls has a tendency to butcher these sorts of things. Because of that, I am willing to believe the reality is different enough from his description.

In a recent survey, I complained about feats, primarily along the lines of "There are a lot of useless, but character narrative defining feats, lot of melee-type feats, and a few crappy spellcaster feats." I went on to point out that spellcasters can usually pick and choose feats that they can become somewhat competent in melee but melee types can never use feats to become somewhat competent at spellcasting.

So, I think there might be some hidden nuggets in Mearls butchery:

Feats as "prestige class" means spellcaster dips into melee and melee dips into spellcaster can be done without multiclassing. That could be nice if done right (4E multiclass did this feat dip, but because powers were tied to ability scores so tightly, it often was a very poor dip.).

I think Fighter/rogues getting more feats, for example, might address the melee feat bloat. Many of those options are critical for certain build archetypes (2w fighter, grappler, etc). You *could* roll those into class builds (ie, make a grappler fighter build), but why couldn't a rogue, or a cleric have those melee options? Divorcing them from the class and leaving them in feats allows for more customization. But to spend a bunch of feats to achieve your "build" means you can't take all the power-boosting feats your vanilla fighter buddy did. So, I am guessing here, but I think there will be some classification of feats along the lines of "Build" chains, and "Prestige" chains and "Magic" chains. And fighter/rogue will get another chain rather than more unlimited...maybe. I hope.
 

Putting powerful abilities crucial for a class into feats causes two problems:
a) People can forget/not notice that they *needed* to take one of Feats A,B or C. For example, in the current packet, *any* melee combatant who didn't take a Reaction->Extra attack Feat is gimped.
b) People who shouldn't have access to a Feat will. For example, if there is a powerful 3 Feat chain for Fighters, well, Barbarians will probably be able to take advantage too (along with their innate combat ability suite). This means that very powerful Feats will have to be locked up behind very stringent prerequisite chains, and once you are designing prerequisite chains around lvl 13+ Fighters and only lv 13+ Fighters being able to take a Feat, well, making it a Feat was STUPID in the first place.

Wizards should, instead, strip the entire Feat system out of the playtest for a packet or two, and then return it under the strict condition that the Feats not trespass on existing design space. That way, you end up with a Feat list that allows modest character customization without being a required part of the game, or risking upsetting balance in any way.
 

Mike Mearls on Twitter:

If you're not using feats, you get +1 to an ability score instead of picking a feat. Classes are built on that assumption.
[T]he assumption in the core game is that you can only take +1 to an ability. That levels the field in terms of power.
There's basically a feat that says +1 to a stat. If using the optional feats system, you can instead take a new feature

Keep in mind that none of the feats we've shown match where they need to be if they equal +1 to an ability.
Feats will look more like class features, powers, and special abilities - big, active, things.
feats are non-class specific.

[Will we have more feats, or still just 4?] More.
[Why Fighters have more feats than Wizards?] Spellcasting fills in a lot of levels with new stuff.
[So the idea is to eliminate dead levels?] yes
[Pickpocket and Ambush shouldn't be feats!] agreed - those will not be feats
 
Last edited:

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top