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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mon" data-source="post: 6112755" data-attributes="member: 71673">There is a significant difference. That difference is the whole point of this thread. A 1st level PC is a cut above average in all editions of D&D - it is just a matter of degree and supported play styles.Only for certain play styles.  0-level has never been the intended starting point for any edition of D&D. Ever. In older editions 0-level could refer to "normal humans" from the monster manual, men-at-arms attracted by high level fighters, and so forth. Any 0-level PC rules only appeared in obscure sources such as a specific issue of DRAGON or the appendix of a campaign specific sourcebook.Not at all true. All editions of D&D have something to represent non-adventuring average Joes: 0-level NPCs, or a commoner class, or 1st-level minions.Also, as I said above, I won't be involved in edition discussion so please refrain from either demonizing 3e or getting on the defensive about 4e if you wish to continue this line of conversation. I like both editions, and also earlier ones. I hope the next one is awesome too.I never said that. I said they have a little more, and a lot of potential. They're in no way highly capable right out of the gate - in D&D or those stories.I do agree that 4e, or any other edition of the game, can depict them adequately within the framework of that edition's rules. I never contented otherwise.Only about degree and support of different play styles. My reading is that you only want your play style to be supporte: that characters should always stat out as heroes. I disagree with that sentiment. While I agree that your preferred play style is a good one, I don't think it should be imposed on everyone (nor the meatginder style imposed on you). I enjoy gonzo heroic games and roguelike meatgrinders and everything in between which I've played in over the years. All have a place in the hearts and minds of D&D players.1e AD&D models Ged just as well as any other edition of D&D, although Earthsea wizards are not super compatible with D&D magic rules in general; that's a different issue and applies across all editions.Can you understand that this is not about which edition does what the best (or worst)? I don't care about your preferred edition and you shouldn't care about mine. They all have strengths and weaknesses. It is about being inclusive.You asked for stories where the characters are not already heroes at the start and I gave them to you. They're not yet heroes, they're learning to be heroes. In most cases, they're also having some kind of adventure while they're learning. Playing out those learning adventures is a perfectly valid play style which is supported in the fantasy genre. I am not contending that it is the only valid playstyle, merely that it is there and it is legitimate. Most of all, it is fun for some (maybe many?) D&D players even if you don't care for it.For the record, the "already accomplished at the start" playstyle is also valid and supported in the fantasy genre and is fun for some (maybe many?) D&D players. I enjoy it myself, from time to time. But I wouldn't try to impose it on everyone or proclaim that it is the only way that is supported in the fantasy genre.</blockquote>

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