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Message: <blockquote data-quote="VinylTap" data-source="post: 6112853" data-attributes="member: 6697217">An honest thank you to all the 4th players articulating some of their thoughts on game mechanics. Its interesting to see the other side spelled out a little better. I like the idea of the DM coddling the noobs more than throwing them a bunch of training wheels. I think it gets down to a fairly interesting separation between the two (or 3 even ) games. DM empowerment vs. player empowerment, if you will. As a DM, you can coddle without making it seem like you're coddling, using suspense and levels of perceived danger. I know they need a cushion, but throwing low powered enemies to fight is a good way to do that, as good as throwing around AP. So 5th wants to empower the DM, and give him tools to help new players ease into the game while 4th ed players want more tools to go to the players to give them a more active experience in the game. I think that's somewhat valid. I like the mechanic of apprentice levels, but not Mike's suggested execution of them. Making the power discrepancy even more pronounced does lead to some limits, and probably a fariyl harsh stigma around starting at level 1. I'd like to see characters with "a hit and a crit to down them", maybe 3 normal hits to down (on average). But pulling back the player power to  '1 cantrip, one spell' and not much else maybe leans it a little too far back. I still think a 'level zero' is worth considering (PC's with no class, but the building blocks of one (naturally talented at sneaking, etc. Knows a little magic, etc)Giving a good sense of power ramp over the first few levels is important to the momentum of the game, and carries a more traditional feel. You don't feel as empowered, if you've been empowered all the way along. Its an important and powerful psychological  effect that the game can carry if done correctly. Getting rid of it is too drastic. Giving a more "standard" (or official) platform, for heroic characters to jump onto at say level 3 or 4, as a general mechanic, seems like a good way to give most people what they want, imo.</blockquote>

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