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Legends of the Ring: Brawlers in 4th Edition
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<blockquote data-quote="MiketheMountain" data-source="post: 6710376" data-attributes="member: 6801214"><p><strong>Ground and Pound: Thri-Kreen, Fighter|Rogue, Shock Trooper</strong></p><p></p><p>by <strong>Mand12</strong></p><p>Original post on 2012 May 30: <a href="http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3428881" target="_blank">http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3428881</a></p><p>[ATTACH]70599[/ATTACH]</p><p>Ok, it seems I'm interested in resurrecting my higher-damage brawler concept, and I've got a couple of ideas for critique.</p><p></p><p>The Basics:</p><p></p><p>The ultimate goal is to capitalize on the fact that very little of the Brawler's defenderness relies on the mark and its associated punishment. The vast majority of it comes in the form of brutal melee control. You can't attack my friends because you're stuck under my boot and can't fight anyone effectively, not even me. Which means that going hybrid fighter loses very little of that control if I attack with a striker half with the goal of doing higher damage, if I've already got the grab going. Note that I'm not expecting this to hit the higher end of the striker benchmarks on a round-over-round average - the goal is to improve on the damage output over the standard Brawler, which to be honest is pretty awful. So, on to the structure.</p><p></p><p>Hybrid fighter|striker, Hybrid Talent for Brawler style, Monk MC for MUS. The goal of this is to still do the brawler thing, and picking up MUS allows for a +3 unarmed weapon that I can use if either of my hands are free. Which means I can grab one thing and still be able to hit something else with Grappling Strike. Prior experience with brawlers has made me fairly hesitant to give up that flexibility, especially as Grappling Strike provides a significant benefit in that it's basically built-in Combat Superiority that I lost by going Hybrid Fighter.</p><p></p><p>So, the question then becomes what to hybrid the fighter with. The three choices I see as viable are rogue, executioner, and blackguard. Monk just doesn't work - the MC is vastly better than the hybrid - and vampires, well, they're just kindof bad, and I can't afford high Cha so all their class features suck. </p><p></p><p>Executioner seems to offer the least. Sure, it's got its striker bonus for my MBAs, but I don't use MBAs enough for that to help. Either I make an executioner-boosted attack on my turn, and don't mark, or I make a fighter attack and don't get the striker bonus and hope they violate the mark so I get the striker bonus then. Bottom line is it's one/round, at most, and there's nothing really interesting about MBA. Overall it may be effective, but it'd be pretty dull.</p><p></p><p>Blackguard has some interesting features. First off, hybrid blackguard lets me get access to the entire Paladin at-will list, without needing to be human, so that has a lot of potential. Going Cha-only isn't feasible, but the Str/Cha races are fun and an 18/18 makes for a quite respectable striker damage bonus. Additionally, AC isn't a problem, as I'd have normal Fighter armor proficiencies without needing Hybrid Talent. For power selection, there are a few compelling options. One is Ardent Strike, which gets me back much of my defenderness while still doing high damage. Power of Strife is a rather potent boost here in that regard. There's also the possiblity of getting Valiant Strike as a high-accuracy MBA that carries the full striker bonus. The paladin dailies and utilities are also compelling, as many of them offer increased damage and useful effects. Overall this is a quite solid approach, I think.</p><p></p><p>Rogue, though, is where I think the real money likely is. With an additional feat paid to the taxman, I can SA through MUS and use MUS with any rogue power that requires a light blade. Which means I can use Riposte Strike. Oh, now we're talking. Standard tactics would be to pick a hopefully-isolated target (preferably artillery or controller), grab it, pin it, and then start beating it in the face. Its choices are pretty grim. It can attack me, at which case I get a second attack per round with full modifiers and Sneak Attack. If I play my cards right, it won't be in range to attack anyone else in melee, which means I'll get an OA if it tries to attack anyone else. I don't get SA on it, sadly, but it's still another punch to the face. It can try to break free and run away, but in order to do that it has to escape first (not likely) and then try to get away while prone, which will provoke an OA which means Grappling Strike will prevent it from doing so, and it loses its turn. Given the amount of feat taxes this requires (three for just the basic package, then the things everyone has to get) and then the feats that brawler needs, this puts this solidly in the Paragon-level feat count, but that's okay to me. On top of all this, its secondary stat is Dex, which is the favored stat for the brawler-related riders, like Crushing Pin. Rogue definitely seems to have a ton of potential, and could be lots of fun.</p><p></p><p>As far as paragon path, there seem to be some options. For the rogue, I'm actually liking the idea of Shock Trooper. It alone boosts MUS up to d10, or d12 if I buy into Improved MUS. I like the idea of using a d12 damage die for rogue powers, personally. The rest of the path is solid as well, with some good powers and the feature has the right stat component. Beyond that, the rest of the Fighter and Rogue standbys are solid. Kensei, etc. Plenty to choose from. </p><p></p><p>Thoughts?</p><p></p><p>[sblock=Current build]</p><p></p><p>====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======</p><p>Ip-chk, level 14</p><p>Thri-Kreen, Fighter/Rogue, Shock Trooper</p><p>Hybrid Talent Option: Fighter Combat Talent</p><p>Fighter Combat Talent Option: Brawler Style (Hybrid)</p><p>Auspicious Birth (Auspicious Birth Benefit)</p><p>Theme: Mercenary</p><p> </p><p>FINAL ABILITY SCORES</p><p>STR 22, CON 13, DEX 22, INT 11, WIS 13, CHA 9</p><p> </p><p>STARTING ABILITY SCORES</p><p>STR 16, CON 12, DEX 16, INT 10, WIS 12, CHA 8</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>AC: 29 Fort: 31 Ref: 29 Will: 23</p><p>HP: 100 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 25</p><p> </p><p>TRAINED SKILLS</p><p>Acrobatics +18, Athletics +20, Intimidate +13, Perception +13, Stealth +18, Thievery +18</p><p> </p><p>UNTRAINED SKILLS</p><p>Arcana +7, Bluff +6, Diplomacy +6, Dungeoneering +8, Endurance +8, Heal +8, History +7, Insight +8, Nature +10, Religion +7, Streetwise +8</p><p> </p><p>POWERS</p><p>Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack</p><p>Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack</p><p>Mercenary Attack: Takedown Strike</p><p>Thri-Kreen Racial Power: Thri-kreen Claws</p><p>Fighter Attack: Combat Challenge</p><p>Fighter Attack 1: Grappling Strike</p><p>Rogue Attack 1: Riposte Strike</p><p>Fighter Attack 1: Seize and Stab</p><p>Fighter Utility 2: Forceful Drag</p><p>Rogue Attack 3: Low Slash</p><p>Fighter Attack 3: Slamming Rush</p><p>Fighter Attack 5: Crushing Foot</p><p>Rogue Utility 6: Blind Spot Advantage</p><p>Rogue Attack 9: Knockout</p><p>Fighter Utility 10: Body Shield (Fighter)</p><p>Shock Trooper Attack 11: Shocking Twister</p><p>Shock Trooper Utility 12: Assault Footwork</p><p>Rogue Attack 13: Stunning Strike</p><p> </p><p>FEATS</p><p>Level 1: Hybrid Talent</p><p>Level 2: Master of the Fist</p><p>Level 4: Piercing Palm</p><p>Level 6: Pin Down</p><p>Level 8: Improved Monk Unarmed Strike</p><p>Level 10: Improved Defenses</p><p>Level 11: Ki Focus Expertise</p><p>Level 12: World Serpent's Grasp</p><p>Level 14: Vigilante Justice Style</p><p> </p><p>ITEMS</p><p>Monk unarmed strike x1</p><p>Magic Ki Focus +3 x1</p><p>Leather Armor of Sudden Recovery +3 x1</p><p>Goliath's Belt x1</p><p>Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier) x1</p><p>Boots of the Fencing Master x1</p><p>Spiked gauntlet x1</p><p>Ebon Gauntlets x1</p><p>Lucky Charm +3 x1</p><p>====== End ======</p><p>[/sblock]</p><p></p><p>It should be noted that this is a campaign character, so the items likely aren't "standard wealth." We also have custom weapons provided by the DM, which isn't included in the summary. Mine has an Ebon Gauntlet-like effect on it. It's a pretty minor thing, doesn't affect the build all that much. Sub in some other interesting ki focus.</p><p></p><p>Just hit 14, which means I could pick up the Vigilante Justice Style feat. Feats are at a special premium in this build, and you'll note that I don't even have typical standbys like Inescapable Hold and Brawler Guard yet. Inescapable Hold isn't all that important given how close my Fort and Ref are, and Brawler Guard was my other top pick for the 14 feat. Fluid Motion was a third consideration.</p><p></p><p>Unfortunately, I haven't actually had a chance to put Vigilante Justice in action, due to having just hit it. But I picked it largely because there were a lot of times where I'd grab something that our fighter was also focusing on, and Vigilante Justice would make that situation very painful for the poor bastard stuck between us. VJ-Riposte also helps compensate in that I don't have a particularly reliable mark. I go markless any turn I make a Rogue attack, and having VJ makes that cost considerably smaller.</p><p></p><p>[HR][/HR]</p><p><em>Discussion from the original thread:</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><strong>Mand12</strong>: I may tweak a few of the feat choices, but it's enough to get the general idea. Improved Grab is actually a fair amount of overkill. Current grab modifier is +23, which seems a bit excessive given that even high-Reflex targets at level 12 don't seem to have anything above 26. I'm tempted to swap it out for something else.</p><p></p><p>Notable omissions from the feat list inclue Inescapable Hold, which isn't that big a deal considering the very small gap between my Fort and Ref. In a traditional brawler that gap is much larger, and the feat becomes more important. But if I were to get Brawler Guard instead, then that'd bring the gap to only 1, and I get actually better defenses out of it. </p><p></p><p>I'm very tempted to replace Imp Grab with World Serpent's Grasp. I ended up not having too many ways of knocking someone prone, and that would help considerably. I have enough non-standard-grabs that the fights tend to end before I need the straight-up grab.</p><p></p><p>A better choice would be to swap out Imp MUS for something grabby-related, but that was mostly just so I could pick up those lovely d12s. From a pure optimization perspective, that's somewhat of a weak feat at this point. The damage is nice, but it's nothing special.</p><p></p><p>On the actual playing side, not much to report yet. The first session was somewhat short, and the fights weren't really representative of the sorts of things I'm expecting to face. A particularly annoying solo with an opportunity action push on being hit in melee made things...problematic. But I got my revenge by hitting him with Knockout. Too bad I rolled a 1 on the AP burning the 3[W] daily...</p><p></p><p>The L5 daily is a pretty weak power, but from what I remember while building it there weren't that many stellar rogue options for that level. It did occur to me that now that I have Knockout, I should be able to have swapped out the rogue power for a better fighter daily. I have a thing for Crushing Foot, personally, since that has the benefit of stopping teleports without needing to get a Feyslaughter weapon (which defeats the purpose of going MUS).</p><p></p><p>---</p><p></p><p><strong>Antillious</strong>: Quick usability question: When you've got two targets grabbed, what is the best course of action?</p><p></p><p>I'm guessing that having one in a sustainable grab and then every round releasing and re-attacking with grappling strike is about the only thing to do that still hurts at least one of the targets (and keeps up a mark) I guess if you've got the Thri-kreen thrower feat, you could RBA one of the targets (but lose both mark and SA).</p><p></p><p>Anyway, just musing on what could be done with the build if the intent was to try to grab two targets often. I suppose at that point a constrictor build is your best bet (crushing grasp, ebon gloves, total defense).</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Mand12</strong>: With two targets grabbed, you no longer have wielded weapons. Neither spiked gauntlets nor MUS work. For the former, both hands are occupied, so you can't attack with them, and for the latter despite the fact that you're not necessarily attacking with your hands when you use MUS, MUS requires you to have a hand free in order to use it. Since you can't attack, you might as well Total Defense, yeah.</p><p></p><p>It's unclear, at this point, whether there's anything in the Thri-kreen feats that lets the mid-hands be considered "free hand" to allow the use of MUS. </p><p></p><p>The biggest benefit to the two-free-hand thing is to be able to continue to stop movement via an OA, which you lose by going hybrid fighter. Even if you release later, being able to Grappling Strike someone who provokes can be very helpful. </p><p></p><p>Furthermore, there definitely can be situational benefits associated with simply maintaining two grabs. Like if your Wizard puts down something nasty on them, say Wall of Fire.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>onecrazymojo</strong>: The thri-keen middle hands and free hands in general are a little vague (and largely inferred). I see a valid argument in stating that since the thri-keen is described as having those hands, and so long as they are not holding/wielding anything, then they count as free hands. Which means a thri-keen essentially always has mus available as an attack since mus never actually 'fills' that hand slot. If you felt the free hands bit required the hand to be a viable weapon wielding slot, then the little hands feats should work (it can now wield a subset of weapons, if not wielding one currently, the hand is free > mus available).</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Antillious</strong>: There are a handful of benefits you can get from just that one Thri-Kreen thrower feat. The two big ones that I can see are: </p><p>wielding a rhythm blade for the bonus to AC</p><p>wielding another dagger with another helpful property (bonus to init, etc)</p><p>you can also now grab Snap Shot for two turns of Standard + Minor attacks.</p><p></p><p>Not bad for just one feat.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="MiketheMountain, post: 6710376, member: 6801214"] [b]Ground and Pound: Thri-Kreen, Fighter|Rogue, Shock Trooper[/b] by [B]Mand12[/B] Original post on 2012 May 30: [URL]http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3428881[/URL] [ATTACH=CONFIG]70599._xfImport[/ATTACH] Ok, it seems I'm interested in resurrecting my higher-damage brawler concept, and I've got a couple of ideas for critique. The Basics: The ultimate goal is to capitalize on the fact that very little of the Brawler's defenderness relies on the mark and its associated punishment. The vast majority of it comes in the form of brutal melee control. You can't attack my friends because you're stuck under my boot and can't fight anyone effectively, not even me. Which means that going hybrid fighter loses very little of that control if I attack with a striker half with the goal of doing higher damage, if I've already got the grab going. Note that I'm not expecting this to hit the higher end of the striker benchmarks on a round-over-round average - the goal is to improve on the damage output over the standard Brawler, which to be honest is pretty awful. So, on to the structure. Hybrid fighter|striker, Hybrid Talent for Brawler style, Monk MC for MUS. The goal of this is to still do the brawler thing, and picking up MUS allows for a +3 unarmed weapon that I can use if either of my hands are free. Which means I can grab one thing and still be able to hit something else with Grappling Strike. Prior experience with brawlers has made me fairly hesitant to give up that flexibility, especially as Grappling Strike provides a significant benefit in that it's basically built-in Combat Superiority that I lost by going Hybrid Fighter. So, the question then becomes what to hybrid the fighter with. The three choices I see as viable are rogue, executioner, and blackguard. Monk just doesn't work - the MC is vastly better than the hybrid - and vampires, well, they're just kindof bad, and I can't afford high Cha so all their class features suck. Executioner seems to offer the least. Sure, it's got its striker bonus for my MBAs, but I don't use MBAs enough for that to help. Either I make an executioner-boosted attack on my turn, and don't mark, or I make a fighter attack and don't get the striker bonus and hope they violate the mark so I get the striker bonus then. Bottom line is it's one/round, at most, and there's nothing really interesting about MBA. Overall it may be effective, but it'd be pretty dull. Blackguard has some interesting features. First off, hybrid blackguard lets me get access to the entire Paladin at-will list, without needing to be human, so that has a lot of potential. Going Cha-only isn't feasible, but the Str/Cha races are fun and an 18/18 makes for a quite respectable striker damage bonus. Additionally, AC isn't a problem, as I'd have normal Fighter armor proficiencies without needing Hybrid Talent. For power selection, there are a few compelling options. One is Ardent Strike, which gets me back much of my defenderness while still doing high damage. Power of Strife is a rather potent boost here in that regard. There's also the possiblity of getting Valiant Strike as a high-accuracy MBA that carries the full striker bonus. The paladin dailies and utilities are also compelling, as many of them offer increased damage and useful effects. Overall this is a quite solid approach, I think. Rogue, though, is where I think the real money likely is. With an additional feat paid to the taxman, I can SA through MUS and use MUS with any rogue power that requires a light blade. Which means I can use Riposte Strike. Oh, now we're talking. Standard tactics would be to pick a hopefully-isolated target (preferably artillery or controller), grab it, pin it, and then start beating it in the face. Its choices are pretty grim. It can attack me, at which case I get a second attack per round with full modifiers and Sneak Attack. If I play my cards right, it won't be in range to attack anyone else in melee, which means I'll get an OA if it tries to attack anyone else. I don't get SA on it, sadly, but it's still another punch to the face. It can try to break free and run away, but in order to do that it has to escape first (not likely) and then try to get away while prone, which will provoke an OA which means Grappling Strike will prevent it from doing so, and it loses its turn. Given the amount of feat taxes this requires (three for just the basic package, then the things everyone has to get) and then the feats that brawler needs, this puts this solidly in the Paragon-level feat count, but that's okay to me. On top of all this, its secondary stat is Dex, which is the favored stat for the brawler-related riders, like Crushing Pin. Rogue definitely seems to have a ton of potential, and could be lots of fun. As far as paragon path, there seem to be some options. For the rogue, I'm actually liking the idea of Shock Trooper. It alone boosts MUS up to d10, or d12 if I buy into Improved MUS. I like the idea of using a d12 damage die for rogue powers, personally. The rest of the path is solid as well, with some good powers and the feature has the right stat component. Beyond that, the rest of the Fighter and Rogue standbys are solid. Kensei, etc. Plenty to choose from. Thoughts? [sblock=Current build] ====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ====== Ip-chk, level 14 Thri-Kreen, Fighter/Rogue, Shock Trooper Hybrid Talent Option: Fighter Combat Talent Fighter Combat Talent Option: Brawler Style (Hybrid) Auspicious Birth (Auspicious Birth Benefit) Theme: Mercenary FINAL ABILITY SCORES STR 22, CON 13, DEX 22, INT 11, WIS 13, CHA 9 STARTING ABILITY SCORES STR 16, CON 12, DEX 16, INT 10, WIS 12, CHA 8 AC: 29 Fort: 31 Ref: 29 Will: 23 HP: 100 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 25 TRAINED SKILLS Acrobatics +18, Athletics +20, Intimidate +13, Perception +13, Stealth +18, Thievery +18 UNTRAINED SKILLS Arcana +7, Bluff +6, Diplomacy +6, Dungeoneering +8, Endurance +8, Heal +8, History +7, Insight +8, Nature +10, Religion +7, Streetwise +8 POWERS Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack Mercenary Attack: Takedown Strike Thri-Kreen Racial Power: Thri-kreen Claws Fighter Attack: Combat Challenge Fighter Attack 1: Grappling Strike Rogue Attack 1: Riposte Strike Fighter Attack 1: Seize and Stab Fighter Utility 2: Forceful Drag Rogue Attack 3: Low Slash Fighter Attack 3: Slamming Rush Fighter Attack 5: Crushing Foot Rogue Utility 6: Blind Spot Advantage Rogue Attack 9: Knockout Fighter Utility 10: Body Shield (Fighter) Shock Trooper Attack 11: Shocking Twister Shock Trooper Utility 12: Assault Footwork Rogue Attack 13: Stunning Strike FEATS Level 1: Hybrid Talent Level 2: Master of the Fist Level 4: Piercing Palm Level 6: Pin Down Level 8: Improved Monk Unarmed Strike Level 10: Improved Defenses Level 11: Ki Focus Expertise Level 12: World Serpent's Grasp Level 14: Vigilante Justice Style ITEMS Monk unarmed strike x1 Magic Ki Focus +3 x1 Leather Armor of Sudden Recovery +3 x1 Goliath's Belt x1 Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier) x1 Boots of the Fencing Master x1 Spiked gauntlet x1 Ebon Gauntlets x1 Lucky Charm +3 x1 ====== End ====== [/sblock] It should be noted that this is a campaign character, so the items likely aren't "standard wealth." We also have custom weapons provided by the DM, which isn't included in the summary. Mine has an Ebon Gauntlet-like effect on it. It's a pretty minor thing, doesn't affect the build all that much. Sub in some other interesting ki focus. Just hit 14, which means I could pick up the Vigilante Justice Style feat. Feats are at a special premium in this build, and you'll note that I don't even have typical standbys like Inescapable Hold and Brawler Guard yet. Inescapable Hold isn't all that important given how close my Fort and Ref are, and Brawler Guard was my other top pick for the 14 feat. Fluid Motion was a third consideration. Unfortunately, I haven't actually had a chance to put Vigilante Justice in action, due to having just hit it. But I picked it largely because there were a lot of times where I'd grab something that our fighter was also focusing on, and Vigilante Justice would make that situation very painful for the poor bastard stuck between us. VJ-Riposte also helps compensate in that I don't have a particularly reliable mark. I go markless any turn I make a Rogue attack, and having VJ makes that cost considerably smaller. [HR][/HR] [I]Discussion from the original thread: [/I] [B]Mand12[/B]: I may tweak a few of the feat choices, but it's enough to get the general idea. Improved Grab is actually a fair amount of overkill. Current grab modifier is +23, which seems a bit excessive given that even high-Reflex targets at level 12 don't seem to have anything above 26. I'm tempted to swap it out for something else. Notable omissions from the feat list inclue Inescapable Hold, which isn't that big a deal considering the very small gap between my Fort and Ref. In a traditional brawler that gap is much larger, and the feat becomes more important. But if I were to get Brawler Guard instead, then that'd bring the gap to only 1, and I get actually better defenses out of it. I'm very tempted to replace Imp Grab with World Serpent's Grasp. I ended up not having too many ways of knocking someone prone, and that would help considerably. I have enough non-standard-grabs that the fights tend to end before I need the straight-up grab. A better choice would be to swap out Imp MUS for something grabby-related, but that was mostly just so I could pick up those lovely d12s. From a pure optimization perspective, that's somewhat of a weak feat at this point. The damage is nice, but it's nothing special. On the actual playing side, not much to report yet. The first session was somewhat short, and the fights weren't really representative of the sorts of things I'm expecting to face. A particularly annoying solo with an opportunity action push on being hit in melee made things...problematic. But I got my revenge by hitting him with Knockout. Too bad I rolled a 1 on the AP burning the 3[W] daily... The L5 daily is a pretty weak power, but from what I remember while building it there weren't that many stellar rogue options for that level. It did occur to me that now that I have Knockout, I should be able to have swapped out the rogue power for a better fighter daily. I have a thing for Crushing Foot, personally, since that has the benefit of stopping teleports without needing to get a Feyslaughter weapon (which defeats the purpose of going MUS). --- [B]Antillious[/B]: Quick usability question: When you've got two targets grabbed, what is the best course of action? I'm guessing that having one in a sustainable grab and then every round releasing and re-attacking with grappling strike is about the only thing to do that still hurts at least one of the targets (and keeps up a mark) I guess if you've got the Thri-kreen thrower feat, you could RBA one of the targets (but lose both mark and SA). Anyway, just musing on what could be done with the build if the intent was to try to grab two targets often. I suppose at that point a constrictor build is your best bet (crushing grasp, ebon gloves, total defense). [B]Mand12[/B]: With two targets grabbed, you no longer have wielded weapons. Neither spiked gauntlets nor MUS work. For the former, both hands are occupied, so you can't attack with them, and for the latter despite the fact that you're not necessarily attacking with your hands when you use MUS, MUS requires you to have a hand free in order to use it. Since you can't attack, you might as well Total Defense, yeah. It's unclear, at this point, whether there's anything in the Thri-kreen feats that lets the mid-hands be considered "free hand" to allow the use of MUS. The biggest benefit to the two-free-hand thing is to be able to continue to stop movement via an OA, which you lose by going hybrid fighter. Even if you release later, being able to Grappling Strike someone who provokes can be very helpful. Furthermore, there definitely can be situational benefits associated with simply maintaining two grabs. Like if your Wizard puts down something nasty on them, say Wall of Fire. [B]onecrazymojo[/B]: The thri-keen middle hands and free hands in general are a little vague (and largely inferred). I see a valid argument in stating that since the thri-keen is described as having those hands, and so long as they are not holding/wielding anything, then they count as free hands. Which means a thri-keen essentially always has mus available as an attack since mus never actually 'fills' that hand slot. If you felt the free hands bit required the hand to be a viable weapon wielding slot, then the little hands feats should work (it can now wield a subset of weapons, if not wielding one currently, the hand is free > mus available). [B]Antillious[/B]: There are a handful of benefits you can get from just that one Thri-Kreen thrower feat. The two big ones that I can see are: wielding a rhythm blade for the bonus to AC wielding another dagger with another helpful property (bonus to init, etc) you can also now grab Snap Shot for two turns of Standard + Minor attacks. Not bad for just one feat. [/QUOTE]
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Legends of the Ring: Brawlers in 4th Edition
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