Level 1 hard encounter: white or black young dragon?

[adam_antio]

Hello everyone, first time poster, and first 4th edition game next week

Simple question: is a young black dragon, level 4 solo skirmisher, too strong for a standard group of 1st level characters in a hard encounter? If it is, i will use a white dragon (3rd s. brute). I mean, black dragons are definitely cooler than white ones, but I can't kill the pcs because of that °L°

thank you!

 

[Jhaelen]

Definitely use the White Dragon. Encountering the Black Dragon would have a very high chance of ending in a TPK, unless the dragon is somehow prevented from hiding in the dark.

 

[AngryPurpleCyclops]

The black has a lot of ongoing damage potential for level 1's to handle. The white hits a lot less but does more damage per hit. The sustainable cloud of darkness coupled with the high defenses makes me think this is a brutal encounter for level 1's.

If the dragon gets the majority of the party in a group at the beginning of the encounter it's probably a TPK situation. Odds are really good everyone but one person will be stunned and/or have 9 damage and ongoing 5. It can then move into the party and take a free round of actions while the party is stunned. Biting anyone that tries to move away with a reach two OA and potentially giving away another ongoing 5. round 3, drop the zone around itself granting permanent concealment to itself and blinding any pc's that are in melee, maybe take that second AP here and try and get another pc in 5 ongoing or else take the double claw attack on the most damaged pc who already has ongoing. If the breath weapon recharges it can likely maneuver to get at least 2 pc's who don't have ongoing into ongoing situations. Same thing if the party manages to bloody it. The tail and high armor value make taking melee attacks more likely to cause the party damage than the dragon, especially if the pc is blinded.

The harder I look the rougher this seems. I would love to know what others have experienced with this creature in actual play.

On the other hand I've been in a party with 5 pc's that killed a young white at level 1. Dangerous but the party clearly should win.

 

[Piratecat]

If you don't mind doing a little modification, you could also use the guidelines in the DMG to lower the black dragon from a lvl 4 solo to a lvl 3 or lvl 2 solo. Just describe him as underfed or runty. This way you get the best of both worlds: a cool beastie and a fun, challenging fight.

 

[keterys]

I actually like the idea of using a Draconomicon wyrmling (elite instead of solo) along with other critters, hazards, etc... less grindy, lets you more safely use the higher level one, etc.

 

[Lab_Monkey]

The harder I look the rougher this seems. I would love to know what others have experienced with this creature in actual play.

I put a group of 4 level 3 PCs up against a black dragon and it was almost a TPK. The encounter took place in a natural cavern under a keep on the Shadowfell. There was a pool in the middle of the cavern where the dragon was hidden. The party consisted of a Laser Cleric, Shielding Swordmage, Tempest Fighter, and Taclord. Our party Wizard and Rogue didn't attend that night.

The difficult part about the dragon is the Cloud of Darkness power. Low level PCs have almost no way to deal with this. Cloud of Darkness, combined with the monster's high Stealth, basically gives the dragon invisibility.

I played the dragon as a lurker in the darkness, striking as hard and fast as it could and then retreating and hiding in the darkness to recharge its powers. For the first 6 or so rounds, the fight was going really badly for the players. They got hit with virtually everything I threw at them: dragonbreath, dragonfear, and claw/bite attacks. They couldn't seem to target the dragon in the darkness, and when they did they missed generating tail slash attacks. Even with two leaders they were rapidly depleting their healing resources and player dealths were looking likely.

The turning point was when the cleric successfully hit the dragon with command- dazing it and ending the Cloud of Darkness power. After that, the party absolutely unloaded with their Dailies and finally attacks started hitting. The nova was so successful that I never managed to get Cloud of Darkness back up before the dragon was dead. It was one of the more nailbitting encounters of our game.

So, despite the coolness factor of the black dragon, I would use the white on level 1 PCs. Unless the group has a way to deal with the Darkness, they're likely to get their clocks cleaned.

 

[Roger]

Draconomicon (and Compendium) have black dragons down to Lvl 2 Elite, so that's another option.



Cheers,
Roger

 

[Engilbrand]

I would recommend playing and DMing a few times before getting complicated. It will take a while to really run 4e the way it should be run, and I think that you're begging for a TPK, if only for the fact that your players won't be familiar with all of the options, both personal and tactical.

 

[adam_antio]

thank you all for the answers

then, no black dragons for my group next week.

I thought I can modify the black dragon and lower its level, but since this my first time with 4th ed., it's better to not twist the numbers

 

[keterys]

I really do think the level 2 elite lurker black dragon wyrmling is pretty darn cool for 1st level folks to fight - if you have D&D Insider it's right in the compendium, or it's in the Draconomicon if you access to that.