Level (and Equipment)-based To-Hit Modifier Only

[Stumblewyk]

A few comments in a thread over in the "vanilla" 4e forum got me thinking:

In order to take away the temptation to get a 20 as your prime ability score, how would one go about implementing a strictly level and equipment based To Hit mechanic? As in, the Fighter might have a 20 STR, but that +5 applies only to damage rolls, not to-hit. In this way, every race/class combo has the same chance to hit on a roll. Any build is not only viable, but competitive. Your stats would only matter so far as to affect rider bonuses and "add damage".

My gut tells me to make your to-hit, before adding in weapon/implement bonuses, Level + 4. This starts everyone out, at first level, at +5 to hit. By the time you add on your Longsword, you're at +8. That battleaxe gives you a +7. If you're a caster, you're still hosed, because your implement isn't going to give you the same bonuses, but that's life I guess.

Am I crazy? Is Level + 4 too high? Too Low? Maybe Level + 3? Level + 5 to eliminate the need for the Expertise feats? Is there anything I'm not taking into account at higher levels?

 

[darkwing]

The default is 1/2 level + attribute mod + feat.
For heroic this equates to (assuming expertise and +4 attribute mod at 1st level)

1 : 5
2 : 6
3 : 6
4 : 7
5 : 7
6 : 8
7 : 8
8: 10 (attribute mod now +5)
9: 10
10: 11

I tried making this into a formula, but it's not quite linear and it's probably easier to use the chart, or make up your own chart that is a little bit smother (such as +9 at level 7 instead of +8).

 

[corwyn77]

For something simple, you could go with 1/2 level +4, +6 at Paragon, +8 at Epic, all discounting proficiency bonus.

At level 30, that gives + 32 (including expertise, if you use it, and enhancement) for a total of 28 higher than at first level (without expertise), in pace (mostly) with monsters.

OTOH, if you were willing to be a bit more radical you could try this:

Level +4.

This replaces 1/2 level, stat bonus, expertise and enhancement for to-hit bonuses. It's neat, simple, and puts everyone on an even keel. And, by definition, keeps on pace with monster progression.

You may want to do something similar with defense for light armour wearers as well or heavy users will have more freedom to throw stats around since they don't have to worry about an AC stat. You could just replace stat mod for AC with 4/6/8 by tier. It's a little shy at the last few levels of Heroic and Paragon but it's close (and it averages out by being a tad high for the first few levels of Paragon and mid-Epic.

 

[keterys]

Yeah, I'd recommend making hit completely divorced from feats, magic equipment, and stat. Level +3 to Level +5 (depending how generous you want to be), +1 from certain classes (rogues with daggers, fighters, etc), +proficiency bonus.

 

[Stumblewyk]

Yeah, I'd recommend making hit completely divorced from feats, magic equipment, and stat. Level +3 to Level +5 (depending how generous you want to be), +1 from certain classes (rogues with daggers, fighters, etc), +proficiency bonus.

Completely separate from feats and equipment? I can see divorcing it from magical equipment bonuses if I'm looking for a simple equation (level or half-level + x), but I don't see a problem with the Expertise feats if I keep the equation modifier low enough. That allows for the guy or gal who really, really specializes in that weapon.

 

[keterys]

If Expertise exists, then everyone has it eventually. Forced specialization isn't really specialization, is it?

The real answer, though, is that you need to remove enough factors so that it scales smoothly. If you wanted to keep Expertise, you could, but instead of using, say, Level + 5, then you'd want Level + 4 - (Level/15, truncated) or something equally odd.

If you allow things like the Opal Ring of Remembrance and Headbands of Intellect, that also complicates the matter.

 

[Stumblewyk]

If Expertise exists, then everyone has it eventually. Forced specialization isn't really specialization, is it?

The real answer, though, is that you need to remove enough factors so that it scales smoothly. If you wanted to keep Expertise, you could, but instead of using, say, Level + 5, then you'd want Level + 4 - (Level/15, truncated) or something equally odd.

If you allow things like the Opal Ring of Remembrance and Headbands of Intellect, that also complicates the matter.

Oy. This is why I'll never be a game designer. I'm not doubting your math, I just simply fail to see where the Expertise feats blow up the equation. =/

 

[keterys]

Well, the root problem is that Expertise is poorly designed as an optional feature, because it's intended to be a mandatory purchase by high levels, to correct an error in the hit math...

So if you remove that error through other methods (which is what the suggestion was), Expertise does too much (+3 at 25th level is a big deal!). The simpler method is to make it only a +1, and not scale at 15th and 25th. The simplest method is to remove it entirely.

 

[Stumblewyk]

That's the crucial thing I was missing - I wasn't taking into account the fact that Expertise scales by tier. I've only played (barely) into the Paragon tier, and only DM'd Heroic games so far. Makes sense to me now.

Thank you.