Level based ability score increases pointless?

Are level based ability score increases pointless?

  • I/We never use them.

    Votes: 6 10.0%
  • Eh, it scratches an itch.

    Votes: 33 55.0%
  • I need them for most of my character concepts.

    Votes: 18 30.0%
  • I've exported them to other games that had no such thing.

    Votes: 3 5.0%

A question. Imagine a stat of 12 and 16 and their corresponding modifiers of +1 and +3. That 16 feels so much stronger than the 12. Imagine then if the modifiers were instead +6 and +8. The 16 definitely feels better but not by so much. From a psychological standpoint, by not pressing so much importance into the modifiers relative to each other, could this be an answer to encouraging players not to min max their stats?A difference of +2 is still a difference of +2. Assuming the system is built to produce the same rate of success (around 50% to 70% seems typical) then the 18 will be equally advantageous relative to the 16, whatever the actual bonus.
That's why I said from a psychological standpoint (rather than a mathematical). Extending your point though, min-maxers generally never look at the psychological aspect but instead the raw numbers and probabilities; and thus the clear answer is that it would do zero to dissuade all but the most casual or mathematically inept min-maxer. :D

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

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That's why I said from a psychological standpoint (rather than a mathematical). Extending your point though, min-maxers generally never look at the psychological aspect but instead the raw numbers and probabilities; and thus the clear answer is that it would do zero to dissuade all but the most casual or mathematically inept min-maxer.
My own view is that the mathematics should, ideally, be so transparent that they exert no pyschological pull that is at odds with mathematical rationality. Otherwise, the result is that some players get pointlessly hosed by their own statistical ineptitude!

One thing that bothers me about Burning Wheel (which I seem to remember saying you were looking at for a new game - and I've been looking at it too, although mostly trying to incorporate its GMing advice into my 4e game) is that its maths is quite non-transparent. To work out the impact of a +1 Ob penalty or a +1D advantage requires doing failry comlex combinatorical calculations.

4e - with its 4 rates of scaling (for attack/defences, hard DCs, moderate DCs and easy DCs) is about as far as I care to go into the realm of mathematicl opacity.
 

My own view is that the mathematics should, ideally, be so transparent that they exert no pyschological pull that is at odds with mathematical rationality. Otherwise, the result is that some players get pointlessly hosed by their own statistical ineptitude!
Sometimes though to model things effectively and with a degree of elegance, such transparency is not really ideal. I agree to a point but when the "opacity" of a model gets too much, as long as the mechanic does what it says on the tin, and mirrors fairly well the actual mathematics, I'm OK with that too.

One thing that bothers me about Burning Wheel (which I seem to remember saying you were looking at for a new game - and I've been looking at it too, although mostly trying to incorporate its GMing advice into my 4e game) is that its maths is quite non-transparent. To work out the impact of a +1 Ob penalty or a +1D advantage requires doing fairly complex combinatorial calculations.[/quote]You can picture this by imagining a bell curve, and each die added to the mix for a particular Ob attracting the curve to right (increasing the probability of success). I agree that this is opaque and from my limited understanding of the effect of "artha" on the calculation, the statistics are a little bit muddy. Seems like fun though! :)

I've had the Gold edition for about a week and I'm really impressed so far. I'm slowly going through it because it is all new to me. 600 pages for just over 20USD is a real bargain and as a product, it feels very nicely polished.

4e - with its 4 rates of scaling (for attack/defences, hard DCs, moderate DCs and easy DCs) is about as far as I care to go into the realm of mathematical opacity.
I'm not the greatest fan of 4e's relative scaling DCs. I prefer the absolute system of 3e which was designed brilliantly but then let down here and there by poor implementation (the save system tried to borrow the mechanic and struggled).

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

[MENTION=11300]Herremann the Wise[/MENTION] - attached are some probability charts for BW (in Word, but calculated in Access) which you might find helpful. (I was inspired to make them after wondering about dice numbers beyond those listed in the tables in the Monster Burner). The values are rounded to two places, so some of the 1.00 entries are actually 0.99+ lielihoods (ie near-certainty rather than literal certainty).

The charts show that for anyone who can't do intuitive combinatorical calculations, there is no way to grasp the mathematical implications of adding an obstacle. For example, for a 4D ability, adding +1 Ob can drop the likelihood from 0.94 to 0.69 (Ob 1 to Ob 2), from 0.69 to 0.31 (Ob 2 to Ob 3), or from 0.31 to 0.06 (Ob 3 to Ob 4). (Obviously, an increase to Ob 5 makes the task impossible!)

For a 5D ability, the same increases in obstacle produce decreases in likelihood from 0.97 to 0.81, from 0.97 to 0.50, from 0.50 to 0.19, and from 0.19 to 0.03 (ie with 5D, an Ob 5 task is practically impossible also).

Adding a die is equally opaque - going from 4D to 5D changes the odds from 0.94 to 0.97 vs Ob 1 (little practical difference), from 0.69 to 0.81 vs Ob 2, from 0.31 to 0.50 vs Ob 3, from 0.06 to 0.19 vs Ob 4 (all of which are fairly meaningful), but then leaves an Ob 5 task practically impossible.

I think that BW has two features that tray to make this lack of transparency less important than it would be (for example) in 3E play. First, the advancement rules mean that players will often be more concerned about the category of difficulty (routine, difficult or challenging) rather than the likelihood of success. Second, the rules/guidelines for adjudicating failure in relation to intent and task mean that succeeding or failing is in some respects less crucial in BW than in a more traditional RPG.

I think that the 4e designers have tried for something similar to this second point with skill challenges, which - as is well known - are not transparent in their maths either.
 

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Personally, I loved that 3rd edition finally added regular attribute boosts as you leveled. I would have preferred even more in fact. I am not particularly a fan of how 4e does it, since it's much more baked into the math that you always raise your primary attributes every time. I'd like more freedom than that.

After thinking about it a while, I think I would prefer that at regular intervals, all your attributes go up by 1. I think that would get the feel right, the character has grown as a person, and even let you start low level games with lower point buys, because you know at later levels the players will have the stats they need.
 

I am not particularly a fan of how 4e does it, since it's much more baked into the math that you always raise your primary attributes every time. I'd like more freedom than that.

After thinking about it a while, I think I would prefer that at regular intervals, all your attributes go up by 1. I think that would get the feel right, the character has grown as a person, and even let you start low level games with lower point buys, because you know at later levels the players will have the stats they need.
There's a bit of a tension, isn't there, between "not liking it being baked into the maths" and being able to "know at later levels the PCs will have the stats they need".
 

There's a bit of a tension, isn't there, between "not liking it being baked into the maths" and being able to "know at later levels the PCs will have the stats they need".
There is; and I think it is kind of interesting to dig around to find where this tension comes from. I'm guessing the main generator of this tension is the perceived pressure that the characters have to have achieved some baseline of ability by a particular level (no character's are allowed to "suck"). Is it the pressure to achieve balance so as perhaps the DM can control and pace the narrative of their game more precisely? My own outlook is kind of the opposite I think. I'm more than happy to let the characters develop how they will and if they have not got the stats or capacity to have a reasonable chance of defeating the ancient red dragon; then so be it - they have an unreasonable chance instead. I suppose I'm more than happy to let the dice lay where they will and tell the story and so do not as keenly feel the tension highlighted perhaps.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

My own outlook is kind of the opposite I think. I'm more than happy to let the characters develop how they will and if they have not got the stats or capacity to have a reasonable chance of defeating the ancient red dragon; then so be it - they have an unreasonable chance instead. I suppose I'm more than happy to let the dice lay where they will and tell the story and so do not as keenly feel the tension highlighted perhaps.
I think this is one pretty viable approach to RPGing. It is how I GM Rolemaster. It is how Classic Traveller is meant to work, I think (although I've got not much experience of Traveller campaign play).

I think the more the spread of capabilities of typical opponents, and the more the spread of DCs (and depending on the system, these might be the same thing), the harder it is to run this sort of game successfully, because you run the risk as a GM of inadvertantly setting up situations that hose your players in ways you didn't expect. (Rolemaster, for example, has much more modest growth in PC numbers - both bonuses and resilience - than does 3E. And it also has the random element of open-ended action resolution rolls, and critical rolls in combat.)

Is it the pressure to achieve balance so as perhaps the DM can control and pace the narrative of their game more precisely?
This is what is at work in HeroQuest revised edition - the GM is meant to set DCs that scale in a way reflective both of (i) PC bonuses, and (ii) prior PC successes, in order to achieve certain pacing goals (ie rising action, with tension increased by the occasional failure, until the climax ensues).

4e is more opaque in its intentions (ie not as well written as other GM's guides), but to me the best way of making sense of it is something similar - the scaling is all in service of pacing and overall narrative arc (start with kobolds, end with Orcus).

I think Burning Wheel favours a mix of the two approaches. The Adventure Burner stresses that obstacles are to be set in an objective fashion - they are part of building up a consistent setting for the shared fiction. (Very different, therefore, from HeroQuest, Maelstrom Storytelling and 4e. A lot like Traveller, Rolemaster and 3E.) But it also encourages the GM to hold off from statting up the Big Bad until the PCs are close to confronting her/him/it, because you don't want to stat up an important opponent in a fashion that will make the final confrontation anticlimactic.

I think there is some potential for these two imperatives - objective difficulties while preserving the pacing desiderata - to come into conflict. For example, if it's part of the already established story that the Big Bad failed at some task, that suggests an upper limit on her/his/its abilities at that task, which might later turn out to be at odds with the ability that you want to confer in order to make the Big Bad an adequate challenge for the PCs. But there are parts of the mechanics that push the other way - it's always conceivable that all dice rolled will be traitors, and therefore failure is always a possibility (however slight) no matter what the shade or exponent of a character's ability. (This is more like RM, with it's fumble and open-ended low rolls, than either 3E or 4e, both of which allow for auto-success on skill checks once the bonus is >= DC-1.)

And for the reasons I gave above, I also think BW is a bit more forgiving of challenges being unexpectedly hard or unexpectedly easy - advancement requires a range of obstacles, and even low obstacle task can quickly become challenging once some obstacle penalties or dice penalties come into play. Whereas to make kobolds challenging to mid-level D&D PCs (3E or 4e, even maybe classic D&D) would require imposing penalties of -5 or more to hit, which don't come up very often if one is playing the system as written.
 

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