Level Drain, Lasting Wounds, and Other Long-Term Conditions

[Rechan]

I wanted to start a thread about houserules for Lasting Effects. Your wounds (broken arm et al), and other things that stick around. What are your ideas?

Over on the 5e forum [MENTION=2011]KarinsDad[/MENTION] complained that there are no real effects to PCs beyond the encounter, or beyond that day. They specified that disease are a joke. I would add that the Rust Monster, the quintessential "I break your stuff", is a joke in 4e. There's further talk of desiring long-lasting consequences.

Then, on the topic of Level Drain, I came across this:

Eh, the losing XP part I'm glad is gone, but I'd rather it just did a -1 to hit, -1 to skill checks and -3 hit points would have been plenty well enough.

I like that idea. And of course this sort of condition can stack (so if you get it twice, it'd be -2 to hit/skill checks, -6 to HP).

My thinking is that while it's a lasting condition, the PC is not saddled with it forever (unlike a drained level in earlier editions). There are multiple ways that one could address this:

• After an extended rest, give the player a saving throw. If they fail, they're stuck with it until (insert).
• They must go on some sort of quest to fix it (bathe in a sacred pool, blessed by a herophant, drink the blood of an angel).
• The condition lasts until they gain a new level.

What do you think? Or, do you have any other ideas for long term effects?

 

[S'mon]

In 4e I like to treat long term injuries as entirely plot-based and outside the mechanics system, so they usually occur either to NPCs - if reduced below 0 hp but not killed, say - or to PCs 'off stage', eg to explain player absence, or most recently why a PC was captured alive off-stage by the bad guys so she could turn up in their lair after staging an heroic escape. I'm not normally interested in inflicting them in-game as part of normal action resolution, but they make a great plot resource.

 

[marelion]

Level Drain is a NO-GO for 4E. Persistent penalties to attack rolls are a pain in the abbacus since they have such massive impact on game balance. Penalties to attack rolls are about the worst thing you can do to your players because it is the most vulnerable spot of their characters in terms of performance. Cut their attack bomus and watch them die in a L+1 encounter because of lack of control and lack of damage. Bonuses to hit are hard to come by in 4E and with the scaling of Monster defenses PCs have to optimze hard as it is.

4E at Paragon/Epic Levels without house rules already suffers from grind issues and reintroducing Level Drain-Abilities would just make things worse.

Level-draining monsters would quickly turn into the banes of all melees. And stacking and most of all, persistent penalties to attack rolls could quickly turn any hard-hitter into a complete sucker. This is doubly true for single target strikers who get less attack rolls than most other roles. -1 to attack might be no tragedy for twin-striking battlefield archers or for most orbizards but it is a pain if you are a barbarian, for example. So it might negatively affect inner-party-balance as well.

And the part I like least about your idea is certainly the plot-hook part: Crippling PCs in their capabilities is about the worst way of reintroducing Players to the railroad tracks I can imagine. Sorry, I`m turning your idea down in such a harsh way but I`ve seen more than one GM falling for such traps and depending on the GM Style/Playstyle of the group it can quickly kill off all player incentive.

I know tthat you as an experienced GM can calculate the effects of your proposed HR quite easily, and that you will provide your players with a perfectly workable way around the level drain but I fear for inexperienced GMs who might bring this idea to their table wondering why encounters suddenly take 4 hours on average.

All that said, I can understand why you would like to change the mechanics for some monsters and reintroduce Level drain. Wights and Vampires simply don`t feel the same anymore I simply don`t think that 4E`s basic mechanic supports Level Drain any well.

 

[Rechan]

@marelion you're welcome to not use them. But many of the things you listed are features, not bugs, for some DMs and their preferred playstyle. This is house rules territory for those DMs that like that sort of play, and having a discussion about options for it is fair game.

Look at Fourthcore, which is about being absolutely lethal and cruel. That goes against the grain of 4e's design philosophy, but it's very popular among folks who enjoy a playstyle with that level of lethality and grittiness.

 

[marelion]

I`m sorry, I guess, my tone was coming around as a little too sharp in my previous post.

Of course House rules aren`t mandatory but I do believe that this particular HR you have introduced might cause more problems than it solves. I gave you my opinion and tried to put my finger on what i think is the sore part of it.

 

[wedgeski]

Level drain I don't really think has any place in modern versions of D&D. It was fine when you could de-stat your character in 5 minutes, but from 3E onwards losing a level was more of an administrative pain in the behind than anything else. Levels aren't hit points and shouldn't be something you arbitrarily take from a PC (IMO).

The current death penalty in 4E would work equally well as a level-drain penalty (-1 to everything for three milestones per original RAW), but you could replace the milestone thing with any condition you like (quest, item, etc.).

I would totally look to the disease track mechanic for lasting wounds, sliding PC's further down it as you see fit (on death, bloodied, unconscious, etc.) and providing them with a mechanism for recovery (time, magic, skill checks, quests).

 

[Jack99]

I would model it on raise dead sickness. So something like –1 to all attack rolls, skill checks, saving throws, and ability checks. This death penalty fades after the subject reaches three milestones (or 3 extended rests). If you are feeling harsh, you could add -1 surge or so. It really depends on whether the energy draining attack is an at-will or daily power.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I DM more than I play. I'm going to take a negative stance on this.

I'm seeing a sad trend in a lot of threads now. "I want my players to be intimidated." "I want my PCs to be weaker." I don't know where it comes from. 4e encounters can be made very painful without resorting to these gimmicks. There's much better consequences you can create, and IMO these consequences should be based on player choice (and, of course, screw ups).

In 3.x, the first time I exposed my PCs to temporary level drain, they immediately holed up and refused to move until the level drain passed (which was 1 hour/level of the attacker, so it was a fair bit of time). One could see this as an extension of the 15 minute work day problem -- the PCs aren't at their best, so they'll take an "extended rest" until they are, and "plaht" be damned! But that wasn't the issue at the gaming table. The players stopped having fun.

 

[Unwise]

I DM a fairly 4th core game. I use the disease rules often to simulate injuries. If somebody drops unconcious, they have a chance of getting a serious injury. I got sick of people not caring if they drop, knowing they will just be up again next turn when the clerics turn comes around.

A few broken arms (cannot use off hand), fractured ribs (vulnerable 2) and smashed feet (slowed) later, they suddenly care about damage a bit more. These injuries will last at least for the rest of the day. Sometimes they are used as plot devices to make people take a rest for a while.

In my games, traps generally either take healing surges, or cause ongoing injuries. If the PCs are happy to trigger the trap, knowing the cleric will just heal them up, then you can bet they will get an unexpected injury from it.

I also give people mental diseases when something traumatic happens. This encourages them to take a holiday for a while. This leads to good roleplaying opportunities. What does you character do to recouperate from their PTSD? How do they grieve the loss of their comrade?

 

[SensoryThought]

Healing surge drain is often thought of as trivial, but I've found a way to get my pcs to care.

I've dumped them in the shadowfell and told them they do not regain surges by sleeping. They need special 'spirit shards' to get them back. It's amazing how they now try to fight smart when surges become a more limited resource.