Level Drain, Lasting Wounds, and Other Long-Term Conditions

[KarinsDad]

Persistent penalties to attack rolls are a pain in the abbacus since they have such massive impact on game balance. Penalties to attack rolls are about the worst thing you can do to your players because it is the most vulnerable spot of their characters in terms of performance. Cut their attack bomus and watch them die in a L+1 encounter because of lack of control and lack of damage.

This is actually false. It's not a massive impact at all.

I played for more than two decades, all of the way up to 3.5 with either:

1) -1 to all D20 rolls at half damaged, -2 at zero or below (for those PCs that could still fight below 0), or

2) -1 to all D20 rolls at one third damaged, -2 to all D20 rolls at two thirds damaged, -3 at zero or below

depending on the campaign.

It does force PCs to go to the well a bit more, but even at -2 when seriously hurt, the death spiral syndrome that people talk about is exaggerated.

People who haven't actually played in such a campaign really don't get it that missing 1 time in 20 (or even 1 in 10) where the PC would have hit is more of a psychological effect on the player (influencing actions) than it significantly affects combat.

 

[KarinsDad]

I DM more than I play. I'm going to take a negative stance on this.

I'm seeing a sad trend in a lot of threads now. "I want my players to be intimidated." "I want my PCs to be weaker." I don't know where it comes from. 4e encounters can be made very painful without resorting to these gimmicks. There's much better consequences you can create, and IMO these consequences should be based on player choice (and, of course, screw ups).

In 3.x, the first time I exposed my PCs to temporary level drain, they immediately holed up and refused to move until the level drain passed (which was 1 hour/level of the attacker, so it was a fair bit of time). One could see this as an extension of the 15 minute work day problem -- the PCs aren't at their best, so they'll take an "extended rest" until they are, and "plaht" be damned! But that wasn't the issue at the gaming table. The players stopped having fun.

Sounds more like a poor duration game mechanic than a problem with the penalty portion of the game mechanic. Using this type of mechanism without a duration issue is just one more tool in the DM's toolkit to challenge players.

The real issue with 4E and probably one reason that you are seeing the DM opinion trend that you are seeing is that just like in earlier versions of the game system, the splat books give the players more and more options, more and more synergies, and more and more PC power overall. That makes it difficult for DMs to challenge the players without going to extremes or at least working at it more, and hence, this type of response by DMs. Essentials alone gave some pretty serious striker advantages to parties.

One could have predicted it when 4E came out.

I agree that 4E encounters can be challenging, but there is a difference between when the game first came out and any handful of monsters that the DM pulled out of the MM challenged them, and now where the DM has to work quite a bit harder at designing challenging encounters due to the plethora of PC options in race, class, feats, items, and powers (even with the increase in monster damage, that more or less offset Expertise).

 

[mneme]

I think it's a fine houserule, personally. (Actually, it's not even a houserule. Just make some custom monsters that inflict a custom disease/curse on the players and you're good).

Overall, I think 4e has gone in the right direction by reducing the amount of "I need a cleric or this will never heal" damage in the game. But it's gone a bit too far. Sure, being drained will hurt. It's -supposed- to hurt; it's a negative reenforcement for being hit. But as long as it's not crazy common, it's something the players can deal with, and it's an easy way to get a bit more grit into the game.

 

[Ferghis]

I've always been a big fan of the following house rule because it allows players to ham up their roleplaying skills and are relatively simple to administer:

If a player fails one death save in one encounter, s/he picks an ability score or movement to penalize by 1, and describes the long-term injury suffered. This penalty and injury last for a month, unless reduced by healing and/or endurance checks.

If a player fails two death saves in one encounter, the penalty is permanent.

Rituals such as remove affliction may remove these penalties.

 

[the Jester]

I agree that 4E encounters can be challenging, but there is a difference between when the game first came out and any handful of monsters that the DM pulled out of the MM challenged them, and now where the DM has to work quite a bit harder at designing challenging encounters due to the plethora of PC options in race, class, feats, items, and powers (even with the increase in monster damage, that more or less offset Expertise).

I find the reverse to be true, at least above about 5th level: having more options hasn't made recent pcs imc tougher than the original group of PH-only, 1st-day-after-release pcs. But the changes to the monster math sure have made it easier for an encounter to actually challenge the party.

 

[Quickleaf]

I agree that long-term conditions can add an interesting twist to adventure, shifting the players from encounter-based thinking to adventure (or even campaign)-based strategizing. Personally I think the disease mechanic works well for this, though I've read posts by other DMs who feel it's a pitiful speedbump.

I would model it on raise dead sickness. So something like –1 to all attack rolls, skill checks, saving throws, and ability checks. This death penalty fades after the subject reaches three milestones (or 3 extended rests). If you are feeling harsh, you could add -1 surge or so. It really depends on whether the energy draining attack is an at-will or daily power.

Yeah, I assumed that folks who want an old school energy drain in their games would just appropriate the raise dead penalty.

I DM a fairly 4th core game. I use the disease rules often to simulate injuries. If somebody drops unconcious, they have a chance of getting a serious injury. I got sick of people not caring if they drop, knowing they will just be up again next turn when the clerics turn comes around.

I'm thinking about having players draw wound cards when they fail a death save. It was pretty hilarious when in my friend's game the party let my knight bleed out so they could take down the bad guy ("oh he's got another death save he's fine..."); but it did make me realize how cavalierly experienced 4e players can take getting KO'ed.

I also give people mental diseases when something traumatic happens. This encourages them to take a holiday for a while. This leads to good roleplaying opportunities. What does you character do to recouperate from their PTSD? How do they grieve the loss of their comrade?

This wouldn't work at my table, but I'd like to be a fly at yours and see how your players respond.

 

[Rechan]

For the record, I don't like things like stat drain, etc. But I dislike how cavalier people are about dropping below 0, and how easy people can go from dying to Olympic athlete-status in a few rounds. Also, while I dislike old school "10' poles and three hours of caution" or casual magical item destruction (rust monsters), having players be a little more concerned when fighting certain monsters would be great. I also ignore basically anything above level 10 so I'm not worried about higher level math breakage.

I DM a fairly 4th core game. I use the disease rules often to simulate injuries.

I'd like to hear about the mechanics here. What are you using to remove it (as opposed to remove affliction)? IIRC, disease rules had you making saves after each extended rest; how does this let you get rid of it after the end of the day?

 

[D'karr]

For the record, I don't like things like stat drain, etc. But I dislike how cavalier people are about dropping below 0, and how easy people can go from dying to Olympic athlete-status in a few rounds. Also, while I dislike old school "10' poles and three hours of caution" or casual magical item destruction (rust monsters), having players be a little more concerned when fighting certain monsters would be great. I also ignore basically anything above level 10 so I'm not worried about higher level math breakage.


I'd like to hear about the mechanics here. What are you using to remove it (as opposed to remove affliction)? IIRC, disease rules had you making saves after each extended rest; how does this let you get rid of it after the end of the day?

Several months ago I devised a system for short term wounds and long term injuries based on existing mechanics in the game.

I posted all of it to loremaster at the following location

Part 1 and part 2 of those articles talk a bit more about the entire "healing" mechanics and the semantics of 4e. But Part 3 is really the one with mechanical meat for use at the game table.

 

[fba827]

have you considered the Curse mechanic? just don't call it a curse if that term doesn't fit.
A curse has a track, like a disease. But it doesn't go away if you get to stage 0, it lays dormant. and you have to keep checking the next day. the way to get rid of them is something thematically appropriate (the example curse from book of vile darkness was for lycanthropy and to remove the curse you must seek out and convince a werewolf lord to lift it from you; followed by a clause that the DM's discretion a remove affliction could also be used for those who didn't wish to get in to a grander scheme quest for removal).
so that may provide a good baseline for what you're looking for

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I'm much more likely to want story related penalties vs relatively canned stuff. Level drain IMHO was just both an accounting nightmare (even in AD&D) and just too much of a buzzkill. "Gosh, I just spent a month getting up to 9th level and now I have to do it all over again, how fun!" no, not really...

I don't really see anything wrong with more targeted penalties, ones that can be overcome, and just basically more story relevant. Long onset poisons and curses using the disease track work great IMHO. I don't think there's anything wrong with setting up specific monsters with some kind of ability to cause a 'wound' or something, but again make it special. It's FUN to have some extra challenge, but it's dull to have a couple numerical penalties, they don't do much to convey an interesting situation.

For a gritty game I could easily see doing stuff like adding a wound that uses the disease track when someone is knocked unconscious or fails a death save, etc. It probably isn't a good choice for every game, but as a way of tweaking the system to do certain things it's cool. It isn't going to have a huge mechanical effect on the playing of the game, but it will give the players something to think about.