D&D General Level Independent Challenges

[LordEntrails]

I think there are very very few.

First, That's wrong, there are tons of ways to make challenges that are character level independent. But they almost all are Player challenges, not character challenges (mazes, puzzles, social challenges without DC rolls).

I don't usually like player challenges. And any social challenge that uses skill rolls to determine anything (persuasion, insight, etc) are level based. If they don't have skill/ability rolls, then they are player challenges.

might be trying to convince an NPC

If there are DCs, then is is level dependent. If not, then you are challenging the Players role playing ability.

resolve it as a series of checks

And therefore it is level dependent.

a mini game where each player created a thematic team of animals

Now this, the concept of a mini game, is the only thing I've seen mentioned that actually removes the character abilities from play, and does not require player ability to resolve. So, mini games. Where the players control (without DC rolls) some other entity (cats, npcs, magic chess pieces, constructs, etc) and therefore it is up to the ability of what they control to determine the outcome is the only level independent challenge that I can see that is not a Player challenge.

A delicate glass sphere

Player challenge offset by character level.

stakeholder negotiations

If there are DCs, then level dependent, if not, Player challenge.

any contest you run as purely one of player skill

Yep, and why role play? Why not just have a mental challenge between players? To me, role playing is about surpassing, bypassing, or altering player abilities and playing pretend.

In a level-based system like D&D, why try to bypass one of the primary mechanics of the game?

 

[Lanefan]

Skill Challenges. The definition is getting X successes (however success is defined) before Y failures (ditto.) Chase scenes, ritual interruptions, hostage negotiations, all sorts of stuff becomes a simple and easily-applied framework.

Skills, generally, get better with level; thus skill challenges are not in themselves level-agnostic.

 

[Lanefan]

I think there are very very few.

First, That's wrong, there are tons of ways to make challenges that are character level independent. But they almost all are Player challenges, not character challenges (mazes, puzzles, social challenges without DC rolls).

I don't usually like player challenges. And any social challenge that uses skill rolls to determine anything (persuasion, insight, etc) are level based. If they don't have skill/ability rolls, then they are player challenges.

If there are DCs, then is is level dependent. If not, then you are challenging the Players role playing ability.

Maybe. As this is a general thread and thus examples from all editions can fit, there's one very basic character mechanic that - at least in pre-WotC editions - doesn't change simply due to level; and that's a character's base stats.

Therefore, a challenge requiring a 1e character to roll under a stat is, at face value, level agnostic. Ignoring gear and items, a 15th-level character with Dex 13 has the same odds of success as a 1st-level character with Dex 13 when the challenge's success/fail state is determined by rolling under Dex.; and there's no reason to assume that 15th-level character's Dex wasn't 13 for its whole career.

As for the player challenge vs character challenge dichotomy: either the game has to directly challenge the players-as-characters sometimes or everything has to be left to numeric abstraction. Numeric abstraction isn't always the best means of resolution, and - as you note - is almost always level-dependent at least in the WotC editions. Which means, challenging the players is IMO fair game.

 

[Reynard]

If there are DCs, then level dependent, if not, Player challenge.

I mean, I specifically followed that with noting that the convincing was by doing things to shore up the NPC's support, not making Persuasion checks.

 

[Pedantic]

Skills, generally, get better with level; thus skill challenges are not in themselves level-agnostic.

Skill challenges used a leveled DC system. A DM could assign a hostage negotiation as either a level 4 or level 15 challenge, and generally expect a level 4 or level 15 party to have about the same odds of success, respectively. There is no strict guideline on how to assign a level to a specific challenge, so you can reasonably use the system to handle anything you want to resolve using a skill challenge independently of the PC's level.

I personally don't think this is a good or desirable thing, but the system does work to that end.

 

[Fanaelialae]

And therefore it is level dependent.

Alternate-universe level dependency, perhaps. As I said, the player opted to have an actual dance off with the DM, rather than rolling, so it was effectively level independent. Though it would have admittedly been level dependent had we opted to roll.

 

[LordEntrails]

I mean, I specifically followed that with noting that the convincing was by doing things to shore up the NPC's support, not making Persuasion checks.

Alternate-universe level dependency, perhaps. As I said, the player opted to have an actual dance off with the DM, rather than rolling, so it was effectively level independent. Though it would have admittedly been level dependent had we opted to roll.

Understood on both of these. Which makes them Player challenges. Since player challenges are irrelevant to what character is being played, to me, they really are not role playing challenges. I mean they are... but they aren't if you know what I mean?

Nothing wrong with challenging the players, It's just the mood I'm in today I guess.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Understood on both of these. Which makes them Player challenges. Since player challenges are irrelevant to what character is being played, to me, they really are not role playing challenges. I mean they are... but they aren't if you know what I mean?

Nothing wrong with challenging the players, It's just the mood I'm in today I guess.

Well, the player could choose to dance however their character would, in which case it would be RP.

That really applies to almost anything in game beyond rolling dice without any description. If we're RPing a conversation with an NPC, I can choose to say what I think would get the NPC to do what I want. Or, assuming they aren't the same thing, I could choose to have my character say whatever I think my character would say. The latter is RP while the former is more what you seem to refer to as a player challenge.

Ultimately, I think both have their place in the game. RP can be a lot of fun, but on a night when we're trying to get stuff done the impractical RP approach can just end up annoying everyone else at the table. I think there's a time and a place for both.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Skills, generally, get better with level; thus skill challenges are not in themselves level-agnostic.

Okay...but the definition is successes, not skill rolls. Meaning a complexity 2 skill challenge requires 6 successful skill rolls before 3 failures (though I prefer slightly modified setups myself.) You're looking deeper than the skill challenge itself; you're looking at the actual DCs. But those can and should be set contextually. "Chase the bad guys across town" is level-agnostic. "Chase the Silver Fox across Duneburg to reclaim the Desert Rose ruby" is a singular specific instance, which will carry actual DCs in it because it is a singular, specific instance.

The skill challenge itself is level agnostic up until the DM sets DCs for it. They may, if they wish, simply set those DCs based off the party's level, but I generally would not recommend that. Instead, set them based on the location, current environmental conditions, opposition strength, etc. This can even mean the DCs might change if the situation changes. Perhaps the Druid, knowing the Rogue is slipping on the rain-slick rooftops, expends some of her mojo to spiritually wrassle with the thunderstorm above (Nature check, difficulty based on how nasty the storm is), and if she succeeds, the storm might recede for a time, or perhaps it recedes only around the party and intensifies near the Grey Fox, impeding their progress and making all future physical-movement stuff easier to pull off (lowered DCs.)

Again. It is the framework which is agnostic. Once you apply it to a given campaign, it must take on specifics. Prior to that, though? The challenge could be applied to any campaign and at effectively any level, because all that matters is successes, not target numbers.

 

[Lanefan]

Okay...but the definition is successes, not skill rolls. Meaning a complexity 2 skill challenge requires 6 successful skill rolls before 3 failures (though I prefer slightly modified setups myself.) You're looking deeper than the skill challenge itself; you're looking at the actual DCs. But those can and should be set contextually. "Chase the bad guys across town" is level-agnostic. "Chase the Silver Fox across Duneburg to reclaim the Desert Rose ruby" is a singular specific instance, which will carry actual DCs in it because it is a singular, specific instance.

The skill challenge itself is level agnostic up until the DM sets DCs for it. They may, if they wish, simply set those DCs based off the party's level, but I generally would not recommend that. Instead, set them based on the location, current environmental conditions, opposition strength, etc. This can even mean the DCs might change if the situation changes. Perhaps the Druid, knowing the Rogue is slipping on the rain-slick rooftops, expends some of her mojo to spiritually wrassle with the thunderstorm above (Nature check, difficulty based on how nasty the storm is), and if she succeeds, the storm might recede for a time, or perhaps it recedes only around the party and intensifies near the Grey Fox, impeding their progress and making all future physical-movement stuff easier to pull off (lowered DCs.)

Again. It is the framework which is agnostic. Once you apply it to a given campaign, it must take on specifics. Prior to that, though? The challenge could be applied to any campaign and at effectively any level, because all that matters is successes, not target numbers.

Do the characters' skills improve as they level up? If yes, then anything involving use of those skills (which includes skill challenges) is by definition not level-agnostic. The level of the character makes a material difference to the odds of success or failure.

If the characters' skills were all locked in at 1st level and never changed thereafter then challenges involving skills would indeed be level-agnostic; but I've a sneakin' hunch that 4e don't work that way.

And all of this is before a DC - which for this purpose is irrelevant - ever enters the equation.

 

[Clint_L]

I would argue that most challenges in D&D are level independent, in a practical sense. Levelling in D&D is mostly a treadmill where the mechanical difficulty of the traps, combats, persuasion checks, etc. is steadily increased by the DM to be commensurate to enhancements in player stats, spells, equipment, etc. The challenges that really matter - figuring out mysteries, solving puzzles, developing compelling characters - are completely level independent. They mostly just take time and investment, so characters do tend to level up while these challenges unfold.

Edit: when I'm creating story, I don't worry about the party's level until it is time to play, and then I tweak the creatures, DCs, etc. as needed. I'm about to re-use a campaign arc that originally took two groups from levels 1-5, but this time with a group that starts at level 5. It'll be a snap to make the adjustments.

 

[Lanefan]

I would argue that most challenges in D&D are level independent, in a practical sense. Levelling in D&D is mostly a treadmill where the mechanical difficulty of the traps, combats, persuasion checks, etc. is steadily increased by the DM to be commensurate to enhancements in player stats, spells, equipment, etc. The challenges that really matter - figuring out mysteries, solving puzzles, developing compelling characters - are completely level independent. They mostly just take time and investment, so characters do tend to level up while these challenges unfold.

Edit: when I'm creating story, I don't worry about the party's level until it is time to play, and then I tweak the creatures, DCs, etc. as needed. I'm about to re-use a campaign arc that originally took two groups from levels 1-5, but this time with a group that starts at level 5. It'll be a snap to make the adjustments.

The very fact you have to make those adjustments means the adventure and its challenges are not level-agnostic.

Level-agnostic means that with all other things being equal and nothing about the challenge being changed, the challenge is the same difficulty and-or offers the same odds of success/failure regardless of the level of the character(s) facing the challenge.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Level-agnostic means that with all other things being equal and nothing about the challenge being changed, the challenge is the same difficulty and-or offers the same odds of success/failure regardless of the level of the character(s) facing the challenge.

Which is true for a skill challenge that has not yet been applied to a game.

Which is what I said. A complexity N skill challenge offers the same difficulty regardless of what level you apply it to, because it is always (N+1)×2 successes before three failures (though as noted, I prefer slightly tweaked approaches; this is just the way 4e proper did it.)

Can you succeed (N+1)×2 times before you fail 3 times? That's a fixed difficulty regardless of your character level. I don't see how this is incomprehensible.

 

[Reynard]

Which is true for a skill challenge that has not yet been applied to a game.

Which is what I said. A complexity N skill challenge offers the same difficulty regardless of what level you apply it to, because it is always (N+1)×2 successes before three failures (though as noted, I prefer slightly tweaked approaches; this is just the way 4e proper did it.)

Can you succeed (N+1)×2 times before you fail 3 times? That's a fixed difficulty regardless of your character level. I don't see how this is incomprehensible.

There's nothing worse in a level based game than constantly scaling difficulties. Climbing the same wall at 1st level should not have a DC of 12 at 1st level and a DC of 25 at 15th level, or whatever. Why bother with levels at all then? Just say every action the PC takes succeeds on a 1-2 on a 1d6.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

There's nothing worse in a level based game than constantly scaling difficulties. Climbing the same wall at 1st level should not have a DC of 12 at 1st level and a DC of 25 at 15th level, or whatever. Why bother with levels at all then? Just say every action the PC takes succeeds on a 1-2 on a 1d6.

And if you had read my previous post, I explicitly said that you probably shouldn't do it that way.

 

[Clint_L]

The very fact you have to make those adjustments means the adventure and its challenges are not level-agnostic.

Level-agnostic means that with all other things being equal and nothing about the challenge being changed, the challenge is the same difficulty and-or offers the same odds of success/failure regardless of the level of the character(s) facing the challenge.

I don't see it that way. I see that challenge as something like "track the monster to its lair, defeat the monster to rescue the child, and safely return the child to her mother in order to win favour with a patron"(part of the opening arc of this chunk of campaign, in fact). The specific monster isn't the meaningful part of the challenge - I can (and do) slot any monster in there depending on what level the characters are, just as I can make the survival check to track it harder if I want.

There are some story arcs that are not level agnostic: "recover the ancient artifact to empower you to face the ancient dragon before it can unleash its fury upon the city" is not a low-level appropriate challenge. It would feel weird and unearned at, like, level 3. For me, though, things like DCs and monsters are often just [insert here] things. So that story arc I am currently reusing is truly level agnostic because I can reuse the whole thing without changing anything, aside from tweaking a few encounters on DnDBeyond.

 

[LordEntrails]

I don't see it that way. I see that challenge as something like "track the monster to its lair, defeat the monster to rescue the child, and safely return the child to her mother in order to win favour with a patron"(part of the opening arc of this chunk of campaign, in fact). The specific monster isn't the meaningful part of the challenge - I can (and do) slot any monster in there depending on what level the characters are, just as I can make the survival check to track it harder if I want.

And how do you determine "Track the monster to its lair"? Is this a skill check with a DC? The it's level dependent. "Defeat the monster" is, in D&D, level dependent because the monster has stats that I assume you are going to resolve with combat. SAfely return the child... well, assuming this is just take the rescued NPC to another NPC and their is nothing that has to be overcome to do si, then sure, it's level independent, but it's not a challenge.

 

[Lanefan]

Which is true for a skill challenge that has not yet been applied to a game.

In pure white-room theorizing this is correct. However, if you don't apply the skill challenge to a game, what's the point?

Which is what I said. A complexity N skill challenge offers the same difficulty regardless of what level you apply it to, because it is always (N+1)×2 successes before three failures (though as noted, I prefer slightly tweaked approaches; this is just the way 4e proper did it.)

Can you succeed (N+1)×2 times before you fail 3 times? That's a fixed difficulty regardless of your character level. I don't see how this is incomprehensible.

The difficulty is not fixed, though: the odds of each roll being a success or failure vary based on the character's level, due to its level advancing its skills.

 

[Pedantic]

The difficulty is not fixed, though: the odds of each roll being a success or failure vary based on the character's level, due to its level advancing its skills.

This is not quite true. The DC for a skill check inside challenge is calculated from reference to the level of the challenge, which is set entirely by the DM. Different DMs may set the same hostage negotiation as a level 8 or level 16 change. If a level 7 party is handing the level 8 version, and a level 15 party is handing the level 16 challenge, their resulting chances of success will be (very nearly, there's some variance in scaling) the same, despite the difference in their listed skill bonuses.

 

[bloodtide]

Well, basically.....Old School Role Playing

Complex Problem Solving: that is anything that will take more then a d20 roll or two.

When the game setting has a problem, like the elven and dwarf kingdoms are on the edge of a war and the PCs must find someway to make peace. Now as long as the DM does not set it up as "ok, just roll higher then a 10, and your characters make peace throughout the lands". If the DM makes it a Complex Problem, the players can't just "roll to solve it".

When the players have to do real investigation, not just "roll to have their characters know stuff". When the players have to keep track of facts, not just "roll to have their character remember things". When the players have to sift through the rumors, lies and facts and figure out things for real, not just "roll to have their character figure things out."

Solving mysteries for real, as long as the game is not set up for "just roll to solve the mystery".

As long as game is more complex then "the characters are murderhobos and kill anything that moves on sight", players will need to figure out real actions and tactics to win a fight. Even very simple tactics, have nothing to do with "level". Though you need a DM that adds a bit more to the game other then "whatever you do we will have Encounter 11, exactly as written."

Getting anything complex done, without direct combat, is also a thing. Assuming here the DM will let the players "win or beat" a combat encounter without slogging through rolls and rolls of combat.

Doing "downtime" things like running a business that are not "roll a d20 to see how much gold your business made this week". Having the player make a 'real' business plan and make profit.

So anything that is more complex then "one roll to win".