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Message: <blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 8242451" data-attributes="member: 93670"> <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">sanguine knot, spirited steed, tempered iron, plus tooth & claw <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/level-up-playtest-document-16-combat-maneuvers.679334/post-8243315" target="_blank">here</a></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Mist & shade, rapid current, & razor's edge <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/level-up-playtest-document-16-combat-maneuvers.679334/post-8242986" target="_blank">here</a></li> </ul>[spoiler="basic maneuvers"]<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Basic Disarm: I'm going to echo [USER=6915329]@Faolyn[/USER] & probably others that this is too easy & good not to spam for players & in return will force the gm to do "and he tries to disarm" There are a couple maneuvers with an exertion cost  that are fine, but disarm will brypass high ac targets in how it forces a strength save to disarm & deals basic melee damage but the bigger concern is that it forces the gm to move towards monsters that can't be disamed (ie natural weapons & such) to avoid spamming it back & that kind of creature selection pressure will have implications on the kinds of plots & campaigns the gm can run.  Even more strangely are things like heavy stance doing nothing for its strength saving throw due to it giving advantage on strength based athletics checks & I'm sure there are plenty of other bewildering collisions</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Meditate: Spend a minute meditating or similar at the cost of burning a hit die is a nice option for those that will provide some extra room for attrition since at least in o5e you only get back half of those per long rest</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The other basic maneuvers seem like great options for martials to add into their toolbox</li> </ul>[/spoiler]One thing I notice with a ton of the 2 point first degree moves in the various .... styles(?)  is that I could conceivably give players an awesome magic or seminot quite magic masterwork type weapon/armor that reduces the cost of one maneuver without affecting balance too much or making predicting my life as a gm too difficult if that's not the kind of thing we ultimately see with the new weapons & armor. In a lot of cases I could see it still being a great benefit even if the damage die/ac is less than the most optimal option for damage die/ac[spoiler="Adamant Mountain"]<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Catch your breath: Assuming most people taking this are going to have decent to great con it works out to a nice reliable 10-15hp give or take depending on the variables & level.  I can see this being popular among berserkers especially & look forward to it at my table</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Cleaving Swing: This kind of thing is always a huge boon for martials & being able to do it as a reaction to succeeding on the first attack adds a lot of flexibility as well as allowing the first attacker to hit an unknown AC to decide the second bad guy assumed to be using the same statblock is worth the expenditure to also hit</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Heavy stance: This one took me a minute to figure out & I'm not sure that everything works right for my guesses to avoid confusing almost good effects.  First off it gives ignore first 5 feet of difficult terrain, between o5e  a few maneuvers like grab n & striding swings it sounds like you get to stomp through opponents better.  The strength(athletics) expertise die is confusing though because it doesn't apply to defending or initiating  disarm overrun or even shove.  I'm not getting a strong feel for what this is going for.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Lean into it: Prone can be a great debuff  to toss on an opponent if you think your allies are going to be getting in some melee attacks</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Reactive Knockdown: I like how this basically amounts to clubbing a mobile opponent in the back to maybe send them sprawling after you deal damage.   It makes me go back to wondering if we will see an increased role for AoOs & maybe a return of the tactical grid stuff o5e stripped</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Shrug it off: This is one I'm looking forward to putting a cost reduction to on armor <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />  Fear is pretty debilitating & fear auras can be worse so I can see this being popular in certain types of campaigns & prep</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Warding Wield: at 1 point it's not too costly & represents  a nice way to use a bonus action that might otherwise go unused & could even make things like a 1d6 heavy weapon that brings it down something worthy of consideration without worrying too much</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Battering Strike: With all the strength saves these are really shaping up to make being near the big slab of muscle a very scary place for dexy types & having the weapon lamd in a random square 10 feet away with this makes it even moreso.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Crushing blow: At least in o5e paralyzed is a horiffic condition to find applied to you while in melee (or amazing if applied to a foe).  I like that this is an action rather than reaction like cleaving swing was 7 feel like it makes for a great balance while avoiding the most obnoxious elements of o5e "does that hit?">"great it's a smite too"/"nat 20 & I'm going to make that a smite!" type silliness.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Unbreakable: To some degree this fristrates me since it suggests that being at 1hp is still going to absorb up to your max hp but it's a nice touch that it makes the footnote about being allowed even while incap since incap would otherwise prevent it</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Bowling Blitz: Wow... this adds a whole new dimension to melee combat from level.... 12(?) on.  Neeeat! I think the most interesting thing about the awesome maneuvers like this one is that they free up allowing spells to be awesome too without "but casters can do 'things'." type silliness</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Stand tall stance: this is a straight buff for a lot of other maneuvers & maybe some other stuff so not much to say about it other thn that I've seen a few things that might make it great.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">unstoppable: The ease that these effects can trigger an accidental TPK & death spiral makes them tools the gm is often hesitant to use so having a way to block them will be an interesting shift.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Wild Swing:  Not sure how I'll feel about having to slow down for ""does tat hit?">"no ok I use my reaction to.." at the table  but I think that the good & interesting elements outweigh the slowage to a good degree & like this given the cost.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Mighty melee: I might be off in my understanding of "2 attacks" mmeaning that it consumes two attacks to trigger this on the third & 4th attack of his turn.  If that's the case +1d8  is almost certainly going to be less than even 1d4+5 . I hope my understanding is wrong.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">World Shaking strike: even with the cost this will be a great tool in the toolbox to help with tearing down mooks when there is something actually dangerous on the field.  Having them fall prone to help other melees clear them up faster is nice icing on the cake of an already good ability.</li> </ul>[/spoiler]Adamant mountain's maneuvers do a great job of giving a heavy weapon wielding character a definate visceral feel to differentiate them from othersyles & I like that feel along with the party roles it brings in a fight[spoiler="Biting Zephyr"]<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Covering Fire: The mechanics of ths suggest going back to a much  more significant role for AoOs in combat than just O5e's exit reach without disengage or at least a sidebar & hook for 3.5x style more than 5 foot step or something.  Depending on how significant that role is this cou;d range from a great tool that really enables the party down to an almost pointless waste.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Doubleshot: This brings up a lot of questions over the old one & I'm not sure how to answer them... What if it's a magical bow that deals +1/+2/+3  or +1d6 damage?...  What if the weapon itself deals more than one die like a hypothetical bow that deals 2d4 rather than 1d8 or something? as written this will play wildly different from table to table based entirely on the dm call a dm will eventually be forced into making.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Farshot stance: This sounds a lot like ranged weapons will have ranged yoinked back towards the realm of sanity. I really hope tat will be the case As a gm who uses a VTT capable of handling truly absurd sized grid maps it's rageworthy that 5e shipped with ranged weapons of so trivially being able to exceed the size of a chessex mats as if <a href="https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/news/2015/12/paralympic-armless-archer-matt-stutzman-hits-long-distance-target-to-score-worl-409657" target="_blank">this</a> "double compound foot bow" was a normal bow & situation at all similar to even sniping a slowly patrolling guard [spoiler="arkenforge limits"] [ATTACH=full]135307[/ATTACH] Nathan is one of the coders forarkenforge [/spoiler] If ranges are going down to ~30-60i range this will be great,  If ranges are the same this won't even be noticed by anyone who might have a PC built for ranged combat to justify investing in it this much.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Point blank shot: Shifting the cost of this down from the crossbow expert feat(or whatever feat) to a bonus action "till the end of your next turn" that you can use in a pinch that might even give an AoO has a nice feel  that could plug a frustration for ranged weapon users.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Countershot: I like the shift from missile to include from a ranged weapon attack for clearing up a lot of screwy edge cases with spells.  & could see it being pretty useful.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Quickdraw: It took me a second to really get just how awesome it is to have a thing that lets a ranged weapon user draw & make an attack as a reaction to rolling initiative.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Trick shot: This is going to be as awesome or meh as the gm makes it but probably pretty good for someone who takes it & doesn't swap it out at the first chance</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Blindshot: Being able to find target & normally attack a stealthed/invisible target is going to feel pretty awesome whenever the situation comes up</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Missile Volley: within 10ft   of a point makes  a pretty good sized aoe so I can see this being quite popular</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Ricochet: Depending on how often cover comes up this could be pretty nice</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Distant shot: This is either situationally good or extremely frustrating for those of us who can't jut say bob/the target is off the mat & force a shift to totm dependng on what happens with the current drone warfare pilot level ranges with ranged weapons.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Dive for Cover: This is probably pretty neat when it works & the 3/4 cover bit mght give a nice feather to offset the iffy triggering needs.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Heartseeker: an on demand crit is an incredible boon for rogues & nearly anyone else.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Throw anything Stance: I'm not sure how useful this would actually be  but guess there might be folks who consider it a good investment</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Distant Death: this is really nice & sets a neat way of  splitting heartseeker rogues with one attack from fighters & such with extra attack who decide to invest in bow use.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Hear the wind: there doesn't appear to be a duration on that blindsight & the maneuver doesn't mention if you keep having 20ft blindsight if you do something like dash cunning action dash etc.  Other than that it's probably pretty neat</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Horizon shot: Interesting but weapon ranges are still unknown</li> </ul>[/spoiler]There are definately a lot of ways in biting zephyr to enable & assist allies in combat other than just damage along with some nifty ways of being awesome as a ranged attacker.[spoiler="Mirror's Glint"]<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Knockdown assault: this is definitely weaker than the adamant mountain one that knocks people prone given the hit on attack> deal 8 r more damage> have them fail a save thing, but not needing a heavy weapon means that rogues & other dex builds can make use of it so I think it evens out into a solid choice for a maneuver given how interesting & varied some of the other mirror glint maneuvers are</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Leading Throw: A 15 foot throw is significant & probably allows for some interesting things (especially if moving >5ft in threatened squares= provoke an AoO).  As written there is no size differences mentioned though.  A cr1/4 tiny pixie could force a gargantuan tarrasque ancient dragon warforged colossus or similar to make that save to avoid being thrown 15feet by a gnat</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Warning strike: This kind of sentinel type stop is almost an anti-tactical element.  Using that same pixie example, it could hit any of those collosal creatures & stop them dead in their tracks.  It doesn't mention the disengagge action provoking an AoO or AoOa in general either so it  can at least be chained</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Wary Stance: This gives a bonus on passive insight & an expertise die on insight checks, but the only other time the word insight even comes up in the maneuvers is in the description for mirror's glint so I'm not sure what use bonuses to insight in combat provides</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Assisted Roll: This is kind of a neat looking effect & I've seen a similarthing in other systems that reduced damage on a hit.  At first I wasn't sure how useful this would be when it triggers on a reaction, but after thinking about it it's probably going to be useful in a lot of cases where you are fighting near an ally but don't yourself ever want to be called something terrifying like "crunchy" "tank" or worse "main tank"</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Off-balancing strikes: In the grand scheme of things there probably aren't too many cases where half speed on a target after closing to melee range will be all that useful, but the disadvatage on ability checks & dex saves could be huge if you work with your group & there doesn't seem to be anything preventing you from using this with a reach weapon.  This could enable some good teamwork options & even make a reach weapon really interesting</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Take Weapon: This is probably pretty neat at times but again there are no qualifiers so a pixie could take a club from a collosal sized giant & beat them with it.  Mechanically  monster statblocks (ie drow inquisitor from mtof 184) don't always say what is adding extra dice & that could lead to some tough gm calls.  The size is probably the big issue.It also doesn't say anything about the kind of weapon so an fire giant with that enormous 2handed sword or a half ogre;s 2 handed battleaxe could have it taken away by a level 4 dagger wielding fighter.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Flowing Form: This is really neat for a tank type or character who finds themselves getting ganged up on.    I could see a plate & shield rogue being incredible with this since every one of those attacks could get sneak damage</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Heightened reflexes: The wording on this is lacking mechanically.  It takes a bonus action to use & in the process cots 1-3 exertion but you now need to guess how many reactions you might get things triggering.  It should be 0 to activate then 1-3 depending on how many extra reactions you take beyond the first.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Redirect: Neat option to turn a foe on a different foe & bonus points for including something about size</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Discerning strike: This is crazy useful for anyone & adds some nice breathing room for other characters to say "yea I didn't take that knowledge skill, instead i can do some other cool thing I wanted to take but can't like half of you take the maneuver that does it and removes a resist/immune?" if pressured.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Matching steps: This can probably get a bit <a href="https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Flash_(Barry_Allen)" target="_blank">barry allenish</a> with a few monstrs & figure 4-6 players.  Also it's pegged to actions not movement r something the player can identify without the gm.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Retributive Blow: With all the if an opponent misses you things in MG this could really be useful for cranking things up  a notch</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Strike the cracks: Crit fisher stance is awesome & it's great there is a note about getting the effect from multiple sources stacking</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Blinding Strikes: blind is one of those things that makes almost any fight easier so this is bound to be popular for games that get high enough to use this.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Mirror shard Puzzle: I'm not sure about the usefulness of this given the fact that it takes 3 exertion to activate & you only get shards if an opponent misses you.  Plus it only lasts till the end of your next turn.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Reflect attack: Being able to reflect an attack or even deciding to pop this after finding out that attack is a critical is a huge boon that could cement the course of a fight instantly.</li> </ul>[/spoiler]</blockquote>

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