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Playtest (A5E) Level Up Playtest Document #16: Combat Maneuvers

Welcome to the 16th Level Up playtest document.

Last year we released the first half of the combat maneuvers as part of the fighter class playtest. Now it’s time to show you the revised chapter.

This is a long document with about 170 maneuvers; combat maneuvers occupy the same conceptual space for martial characters that spells do for magical characters (although, of course, they are all non-magical).

We don’t expect you to evaluate every maneuver in this document. Maneuvers are divided into 11 Traditions and we ask that you pick one or more Traditions to focus on and then give us your feedback via the playtest survey.

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When you are ready, please fill out the combat maneuvers playtest survey.

 

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Russ Morrissey

Russ Morrissey

Horwath

Hero
Downloaded the file.

If the recap table there is lots of typos(or changes from playtest) about what classes get what degrees of maneuvers at what levels.

It will be a handful to read and appraise them all :D

Also all traditions could have class tags under them written.
 

Stalker0

Legend
A few general comments:

1) The number of attacks for a technique always confuses me at first glance. For example the (2 attacks of stunning) always look like "+2 attacks" to me.

So personally I would prefer the format: Stunning Strike (-1 attack). So I know after using the maneuver that I have less attack still remaining to me.

2) Basic Melee damage seems so low that its not even worth tracking. The damage scales from 1-3 damage at the higher levels....why even bother?

3) I don't like the change to the Grapple rules away from opposed Athletics checks. The vanilla rules actually makes grapple very fluid, and gives solid combat benefits for proficiency or expertise in the skill. While Grapple doesn't do a lot in 5e....its counterbalanced by actually being pretty easy to apply in many circumstances. A high strength character with good athletics is actually a very solid grappler right out of the box.

By going to the saving throw, now only the person's stat is used to really adjust the lever, which is a shame.

4) I like the new overrun, that's pretty solid and simple.

5) If you look at Lean into It vs Crushing Blow, one of them is a Technique, and the other one is just an Action. I'm not sure what the difference is, don't both ultimately give you an attack that does an effect? The way it currently reads to me.

Lean into It: Part of my attack action, I make one attack with the technique, and then get my remaining attacks as normal. (similar to how grapple or shove works).

Crushing Blow: Consumes my action. I just happened to get an attack as part of the action. But if that's the case, then why even mention the 2 attacks part.....technically as an action it should consume all attacks I have.
 
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Faolyn

Hero
Thanks! I look forward to reading through all these.

My only questions (for now) are:

Will there be any way--such as by a feat--for a non-martial to get a maneuver? Or should we just assume that the 05e feat Martial Adept could be adapted to LU maneuvers?

The packet says Warlord. Does that mean you decided to not change the name after all? Or is that just a placeholder?
 

Tinker-TDC

Explorer
Off the top might want to read this one over again:
1617832048072.png


I can't see what that last paragraph means. I think I know what is intended, but I don't think that's what's written down.
 

Tinker-TDC

Explorer
Off the top might want to read this one over again:
View attachment 135270

I can't see what that last paragraph means. I think I know what is intended, but I don't think that's what's written down.
1617832213077.png

Okay, seeing a similar wording here I don't think I had the intent correct. Is it if you crit on your advantage roll AND hit on your other advantage roll it's a crit as normal but also with an additional damage die?

Also on the second one is it implied that you are ignoring long-range disadvantage or do you get advantage to cancel out long-range disadvantage?
 

Stalker0

Legend
View attachment 135271
Okay, seeing a similar wording here I don't think I had the intent correct. Is it if you crit on your advantage roll AND hit on your other advantage roll it's a crit as normal but also with an additional damage die?

Also on the second one is it implied that you are ignoring long-range disadvantage or do you get advantage to cancel out long-range disadvantage?
So I read it as the following.

You roll with advantage, and one of the following scenarios occur:

1) Both rolls miss: You miss.
2) One roll hits/one misses: You hit as normal
3) Both rolls hit: You get a crit
4) One roll crits/one hits: You get a crit, and an additional damage die.
5) Both roll crits: You get a crit, and an additional damage die (aka the same as number 4).
 


Stalker0

Legend
My quick and dirty "feel" for each school as I read through the manuevers:

Adamant Mountain: Fun school that seems penalized by expensive maneuvers. Your doing big things, but your going to be doing fewer things than other schools.

Biting Zephyr: Its alright, a little clunky but it does the job.

Mirror's Glint: One of my favorites, I really feel the counterattack and "use the opponent's strength against them", a lot of fun things here. I'll just note I think Mirror Shard Puzzle should be a stance.

Mist and Shade: Also known as "how many ways do I need to get a pickpocket check in?" It does feel a little repetitive, I think its a school that definitely rewards creativity, you have to really use your skills or this one will feel lackluster.

Rapid Current: Probably my favorite all around school. You move fast, attack fast, heck you can basically guarantee you go first in a combat, there's just good stuff all around here.

Razor's Edge: For crit fishers, you have found your home. Some of the maneuvers here seem repetitive off of Mirror's Glint and Rapid Current. I feel like this is a school I would pull a few maneuvers from, but it wouldn't ever be my primary.

Sanguine Knot: I like that its often the "help my ally...AND myself", that way I can be helpful and greedy at the same time. And any school that lets me throw the halfling around like a bowling ball gets bonus points. Also as a weird side effect of many of the manuevers, I would argue that Sanguine Knot is probably the best "reach weapon school" there is, as so many of the effects work off of "allies within your reach".

Spirited Steed: I haven't played a mounted rider in 5e so hard for me to say on this one.

Tempered Iron: This honestly feels like two completely different schools. You have the "fearsome juggernaut" and then you have the "anti-magic warrior". The maneuvers are cool enough, so its not necessarily an issue but its quite noticeable. Its another school I wouldn't take as primary but might take 1-2 maneuvers along the way.

I also feel that the designers have casters casting in melee a lot more than my table does.

Tooth and Claw: Its a fun grab bag of movement and animal type maneuvers, it does the job.

Unending Wheel: Flavorwise, feels like the "Samurai School". I want to like it, as I like a lot of the maneuver concepts, but it just seems a little bit off. I think Razor's edge does a lot of what this school does but better.
 
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Stalker0

Legend
A little character build to take a look.

Daiygo the Song Sword
Raised in a temple with a single purpose, to serve his diety the Daimyo all his days. Daiygo says little with words, only his blade. He has no will of his own, but is a meer extension of his master's will. Daiygo is dangerous and mysterious, little is known about him, because those that try often meet a fatal end.

Human: Die-Hard Survivor (+4 to death saves), Determined (Paragon - +5 to attack, check, or save when at half health).
+1 skill
Culture: Religious Devotee (Adv vs Fear and Charm, Religion, 2 musical instruments)
Background: Solider (+1 str, +1 dex, Athletics, Intimidation, Shogi Set)
+4 dex

Fighter (10th level)
Fighting Style (TWF), Watchful Eye (+5 to Passive Perception to notice hidden threats), Evaluate Technique, Indomitable 1/day, Mysterious Reputation
Knacks: Burst of Strength, Extreme Leap, Nightwatch

HP: 74
AC: 17 (Studded Leather)
Skills: Athletics, Acrobatics, Intimidation, Perception, Insight, Religion, Singing, the Lute, Shogi
Str: 14
Dex: 20
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 8

Attack: Katana (flavored Rapier) +9x2, 1d8 + 5 damage
Off Hand Attack: Wakizashi (flavored short sword) +9, 1d6 + 5

Maneuvers
Exertion: 10
DC: 17
Schools: All (this part is confusing, so I am assuming the Fighter document trumps the generic list).
Exertion cost in the ()

1st Tier (3)
Leading Throw (Mirror's Glint - 1): Reaction - Throw opponent who missed you.
Imposing Glare (T Iron - 1): Bonus Action, Charisma save or frightened until the end of your next turn.
Perplexing Flurry (Mist/Shade - 1): Technique - Enemy has disadvantage on attacks against you, if you use all attacks against them.

2nd Tier (2)
Deflect Strike (U Wheel - 1): Reaction - Reduce damage by 4d6.
Practiced Roll (R Edge - 1): Bonus Action, move 20 feet without OAs.

3rd Tier (2)
Instinctive Counterattack (Razor's Edge - 2): Reaction, gain an extra attack
Rake (Tooth and Claw - 1): Technique: +1d8 damage on all hits after the first.

Manuever Strategy

So Imposing Glare is if there as a precombat ability, to intimidate the enemy and get them to back off, not really meant for actual combat.

In a regular round with no advantage, he will use P Flurry, focusing on his lighting fast attacks against one opponent who then has trouble hitting him back. I've set up the character as kind of a 1 on 1 duelist, true Samurai style.

Defensively: He uses Deflect Strike often to reduce damage (god that maneuver is incredible!), or if the opponent misses he will use Leading Throw if the throw would lead to good results. He also has practiced roll to give him some mobility and extra speed when needed.

The true "Samurai killing blow", aka my super move. If I have advantage (or I can combine my human intrepid ability and paragon gift to get advantage on one attack, +5 on the next), I will combine Instinctive Counterattack, Rake, and my bonus action off hand attack. With good luck that is 4 attacks, and 3 of them get an extra +1d8 damage (so 6d8 + 1d6 + 20, avg: 50.5) . Flavorwise I would say its a "single attack", a true "finishing blow" if you will. One other nice thing about the combo is that I can wait to trigger Instinctive attack until I have done all my other ones, so if I missed I could choose to save the exertion.

Note that I was very frugal with my maneuver costs, so this guy has a lot of staying power. He could literally do his "super combo" 3 turns in a row if he had a major fight.


Creation Notes

1) Even at 10th level, you really feel the small number of maneuvers known, I really had to narrow down exactly what I wanted.

2) There is definately a balancing act on activation types. You generally want a balance of techniques, bonus actions, and reactions. I remade my list a few times, because being too heavy on one means you are unlikely to use it much.

3) Exertion cost is a big deal, and I still feel like the developers under estimate that. Especially the 3 exertion maneuvers, 3 exertion is a LOT!!! I have only 1 2 exertion maneuver, and though I feel it is actually worth the price of admission....it drops my total so quickly compared to if I just kept spamming 1 exertion maneuvers. The trick is with a good balance, you are often going to use 2 maneuvers in a round anyway through reactions and the like, so that exertion cost adds up really quick.

4) Overall I'm pretty happy with this build. I feel the maneuvers paint the Samurai I wanted to make, I feel like this guy does what I want him to do.
 
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Faolyn

Hero
Why no, I didn't have anything better to do today.

So yeah, I'll put as much of this as I can in the survey, but as you can see, I had a lot to say. Spoilered for size.


General Thoughts
Big question: how do these maneuvers stack with the Battlemaster archetype? Or is the Battlemaster defunct in LU?

Organization: Put the maneuvers in alphabetical order. If I’m looking for a specific maneuver, I should be able to go to it rather than have to remember its tradition and degree.

A Recap. If something like this is going into the book, the list should be like this:
Fighter: 1st level: 2 maneuvers; 2nd level: 3 maneuvers; 4th level: 4 maneuvers […]​
Ranger: 2nd level: 2 maneuvers; 3rd level: 3 maneuvers; 5th level: 4 maneuvers […]​

Degrees: In “A Recap,” it says that maneuvers are ranked by four degrees. But there are fifth-degree maneuvers.

Maneuver DC: Since all creatures can use base maneuvers, is that going to be written into the creature statblocks?

Stances: Stances should remain active also until you complete a short rest. Also, can you start one after you begin a long rest?

Grab On: I feel like you should include potential damage taken if a creature you’re clinging to decides to smash you into a wall or roll over on you. It could be as simple as, take 1d10 bludgeoning for each size category larger than you it is. It might also be easier for a smaller creature to grab on to a much larger creature (like, Small vs. Large, or Medium vs. Huge).

Grapple: The Athletics skill should come into play here.

Shove: “You push the target back a number of feet equal to 5 + 5 for every 5 points…” It should be written “you push the target back 5 feet, plus 5 feet for every 5 points by which it failed it save. I feel that if a creature is being shoved back, and the last five feet of the shove is what sends it over a cliff, it should get a save to grab onto something. It’s not fair otherwise.

Formatting suggestion: Here’s how I’d format each maneuver:

Maneuver Name
Degree Tradition (action type, stance/technique, point cost)

Meaning, there really should be a break between the degree-tradition section and the action required (it’s very easy to miss that; I did, several times.), and point cost should be on the second line.

Stance: Some maneuvers are named stance (e.g., Stand Tall Stance). Since they’re already labeled as stances, I don’t think they need to have that in the actual name.

And lastly, can you use these in non-combat situations? Wary Stance, for instance, would be helpful in investigations.

Adamant Mountain Maneuvers

Catch Your Breath:
should be minimum 1 point regained. Unless you’re having more things that can drain Con, there’s no point in taking this if you would regain no hp.

Heavy Stance. I’m not sure that “you ignore the first 5 feet of difficult terrain” makes a lot of sense. Wouldn’t it be simpler to say that your speed increases by 5 or 10 feet when you move during combat?

Warding Wield. Since this is very much like a parry, shouldn’t your AC increase be equal to your proficiency bonus?

Battering Strike: “When you hit a creature using a melee weapon that has the Heavy property…” Does this mean when you are wielding a Heavy weapon, or when you hit a creature that is using a Heavy weapon? If it’s the former, rephrase as “when you are wielding a weapon that has the Heavy property and successfully hit a creature…” Also, does this let you knock things that it is holding but not wielding, in the same way Disarm does? Finally, why does this maneuver cost 1 point, but the Rapid Current maneuver Disarming Counter require 2 points? Is it just because Battering Strike requires a heavy weapon?

Wild Swing: Maybe it’s just me, but this doesn’t quite feel like it should be 4th degree. Maybe because of the name and description: wild swing sounds like something an amateur would do, not someone who is 11th+ level.

Unyielding: This should be phrased as “even when badly [grievously, perhaps?] wounded…”

Biting Zephyr Maneuvers
OK, that little bald dude is creepy-looking. He’s like, “OK, that one first, but you’re next.”

You should probably also say whether or not these maneuvers can be used with firearms or other missile weapons with the loading property. At first glance, it’s obvious some can and some can’t, but an official ruling might be nice.

Far Shot: This is a very small extra distance for missile weapons, but it practically doubles the distances for thrown weapons. It may need to be rewritten, like it increases the long-range distance by 25% or 50%, rounded to the nearest 5 feet. Or, for missile weapons, it increases the range by 20/50, but for thrown weapons, it increases the range by 10/20. Otherwise, if you like thrown weapons, the Distant Shot maneuver is unnecessary—especially since Far Shot is a stance, and those remain active for a longer time.

Point Blank Shot: This is a lot of words to say “you don’t have disad when attacking a creature within 5 feet of you with a ranged weapon, and if a creature within 5 feet of you moves away, you may make an opportunity attack.”

Trickshot: You should probably say whether or not the shot damages the object.

Heartseeker: This one is weirdly phrased. It should be like this: “If both dice would be a hit, then you score a critical hit. If one of the rolls would be a hit but the other would miss, then it’s treated as a normal hit. If one of the rolls would be a critical hit but the other would be a normal hit or a miss, then you deal an additional damage die.”

Throw Anything Stance: Does this include improvised weapons like rocks and bricks (for all the Ignatz Mices out there) or bigger objects like tables and chairs (after all, you can throw anything with this maneuver)? Also, you don’t say how far it can be thrown. Does this mean all weapons with the Thrown property have the same range? (like Throwing Stance from Unending Wheel?) I imagine that if you throw a longsword, it does 1d8 slashing damage, but how much damage do other objects do?

Horizon Shot: Does this allow you to use telescopes (because I’m sure that someone will find a way to stick a scope on a crossbow) or scrying to enhance the range of your sight?

Mirror’s Glint Maneuvers
Nice whip(?)! I’d love to see the stats on that. Why is she not wearing pants and a bra? Tsk. Bad LU.

Leading Throw: 15 feet seems a lot for a 1st-degree maneuver. Maybe 5 or 10 feet.

Off-Balancing Strikes: Maybe it’s just me, but this feels slightly weak for a 2nd-degree maneuver. You don’t even inflict the piddling damage that a basic maneuver inflicts, and you don’t have the option of knocking a creature prone. Also, grammer-o: "when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack instead of..." there needs to be a comma after attack.

Take Weapon: There are two 3rd-degree maneuvers I’ve seen so far that let you disarm someone and send it flying 10 feet away. This one is the more difficult one of grabbing and potentially using the weapon for yourself. Why is this one 2nd degree? Maybe it should be limited to weapons that aren’t heavy or two-handed.

Flowing Form: It should be written as but you have disadvantage on…, not and.

Retributive Blow: So is this supposed to be a stance? Does it cost 2 exertion, or 1?

Strike the Cracks: Confusing wording here. “You deal one additional damage die when determining the extra damage for a critical hit.” When you crit, all damage dice are doubled. So, if I were using a longsword (1d8 damage), would I inflict 4d8 (1d8 + an extra die, doubled), or 3d8 (1d8 doubled, plus 1d8)? Also, this and several other maneuvers say “if you already have a feature that increases the range of your critical hits…” Does this include having other maneuvers (stances) with this phrasing if those maneuvers aren’t currently active?

Blinding Strikes: Considering this is a 5th-degree maneuver, perhaps if the target fails to regain its sight after a certain length of time (a minute, fails three times before it succeeds three times), the blindness is permanent. After all, by this time, lesser restoration is pretty easy to get. However, this maneuver should not affect either blindsight or tremorsense, both of which rely on something other than eyes.

Mirror Shard Puzzle: This is one is not good—too much mysticism and magic for a maneuver, which are supposed to be nonmagical. Rephrase as follows: “You take the Dodge action. Until the end of your next turn, whenever an attack misses you, you can either recover 1 point of exertion or deal an additional 1d6 damage on your next melee weapon attack. You may have to rename the maneuver, but it’s better than turning this into some magical ability.

Mist and Shade Maneuvers

Sleight of Hand Checks:
This is referenced several times in this tradition. What benefits does Sleight of Hand have in combat?

Agile Feint: Juke? It’s slang with so many possible meanings—dance, steal, outmaneuver—that I don’t know which one you’re going for.

Blinding Blow Stance: This is technically slightly more powerful than Blinding Strikes, despite being a degree easier and requiring one fewer points and no attacks. It doesn’t affect blindsight or tremorsense, but it shouldn’t. I have to wonder why this one requires a Wisdom save instead of a Con save.

Spinning Parry: Badly phrased: “a Sleight of Hand check when a creature makes a melee attack against you.” It should read “a Sleight of Hand check when a creature makes a melee attack roll against you. If your check is higher than the creature’s attack roll, the attack misses.

Rapid Current Maneuvers

Speed Over Strength:
What if a Large or larger creature attacks you with a larger-sized non-Heavy weapon? For instance, a hill giant uses a greatclub. A normal greatclub deals 1d8 damage and isn’t Heavy, but a hill giant’s greatclub deals 3d8, indicating that it’s basically a treetrunk-sized club. Could I use this ability with that club?

Parrying Counter: “An expertise die to your AC.” Why not just say that your AC increases by 1d4 points? Or make it like the actual Parry ability, which adds your proficiency bonus to your AC?

Rapid Drink: I have a hard time seeing this one get much use, unless Alchemists are converted to LU and get maneuvers.

First Blood: What is a critical success on an initiative roll? Wouldn’t it make more sense to say that you treat it as if you had rolled 20?

Flowing Steps Stance: OK, I get that this lasts a good long while, but it seems kind of weak for 4th degree. Maybe you have some bonus against opportunity attacks as well, or can Stealth even when moving full speed?

Whirlpool Strike: What if one of the attacks misses? Does that end to Strike, or do you simply not get the extra damage?

Tidal Parry: I’m not sure that critical hits should still have an opportunity to miss. Crits always hit; they are kind of inviolate in that way.

Razor’s Edge Maneuver

Use the Pain:
Interesting, but I don’t know how useful it’s going to be. Maybe change it so that if you suffer a critical hit (whether melee or ranged) you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against any creature within your reach.

Drive Back: Maye this should be that for each attack you make, you drive the creature back 5 feet. By the time you get 3rd-degree maneuvers, you’re making at least two attacks per turn, and you could eventually get three.

Mind Over Body: This feels like it should only come into effect when you’re not at full hp. Also, it’s weak for a 3rd-degree maneuver. It should be a number equal to your proficiency bonus.

Sharpened Awareness: “If the attack still hits you” should be the start of a new paragraph, and should read “if the initial attack still hits you.”

Focused Edge: Seems weak. It should be +1d10 per point spent, almost nobody who is capable of getting a 5th-degree maneuver (or even 3rd or 4th degree) is going to be casting a lot of concentration spells in battle, and there’s only one other maneuver I could find that makes you concentrate. Either add concentration as a requirement to more maneuvers, reduce this one’s degree, or get rid of the concentration requirement and simply have it cost more actions.

Heightened Concentration: Utterly useless. Get this gone.

Sanguine Knot Maneuvers

Doubleteam:
How many melee weapon attacks have a reach of 20 feet? Did you introduce super-long pikes? There are some creatures that have really long attacks, but I don’t know that this is going to be useful against them.

Dual Grapple: What benefits does this give that outweighs the penalties of you or your ally being grappled?

Hurl Ally: Lineages that have the Powerful Build/Heavy Lifter trait (or a similar trait, for NPC creatures) should be able to toss a creature of their size category as well as smaller ones. In LU, this would only be orcs at the moment, but you know people are going to be converting centaurs, goliaths, and firbolgs.

Look At Me!: The flavor text should be rewritten. You’re not making foes hesitate; you’re distracting them.

Brave Shield: All saving throws? I can see Str, Con, and Dex saves, but Int, Wis, and Cha?

United We Stand: Is the extra damage per attack, or just added to the total damage it takes?

Spirited Steed Maneuvers
Art comment: Puppy!

Other comment: there should be a maneuver or two for people with flying mounts.

Mounted Charge: I feel like the first attack your mount makes should also gain advantage.

Trample: If you’re riding something with claws, you should have the option of making it slashing damage instead. It’s probably not a big deal, but verisimilitude is key.

Prodigious Leap: Again, no magical effects in a nonmagical maneuver. Just double or even triple its jump distances; don’t let it actually fly.

Spirited Whistle: Giving it fatigue seems harsh. It should simply move at full speed, maybe even taking the Dash action, until it reaches you. If this takes several rounds, that’s OK. Unless taking the Dash action causes fatigue for PCs, the mount shouldn’t suffer that. Especially considering many of them are built for this kind of movement.

Tempered Iron Maneuvers

Striding Swings:
I guess this provokes opportunity attacks?

Zealous Stance: Why would you not “decide” to get expertise dice?

Dispelling Assault: I can see this being used against allies who have a spell on them and the casters didn’t prepare dispel magic. You should specify whether this works against curses, because if so, it’s hella powerful. “I’ll have to beat ya up for a bit until it gets rid of that nasty geas. Don’t worry, the cleric’ll heal ya afterwards!” Actually, you should also specify if this works for spell-like abilities. If someone gets charmed by a nymph or a ‘cubus, can you use this to fix them?

Dispelling Charge: I’m not sure how this is better than Break Spell, other than that you get to move. The chances of a crit are pretty low, even if you have other abilities that give you a wider crit range, and a crit would likely make the concentration save DC so high that failure is likely anyway.

Holy Pyre Stance: How long does the change in fire resistance last? Until you lose the stance, or for a different length of time?

Spell Shattering Strike: Possible effects include “the creature is confused” and “the creature is rattled for the next minute.” Are these new conditions? (Yay! I’ve been hoping for a Confused condition) or are they rules exceptions for this maneuver and you’ll expand upon them in the final document?

Branding Steel: Again, this feels too magical for a non-magical maneuver.

Tooth and Claw Maneuvers
Some of these maneuvers refer to melee weapon attacks, even though they look like they should be able to be used with natural weapons and unarmed strike. Can you use a natural weapon and unarmed attack with them as well, or can you only use weapons? I think all the maneuvers in this tradition should be allowed for natural weapons and unarmed attacks.

Ride Enemy: Rephrase: “…you can use your reaction to make a Grab On basic maneuver, and you make your Strength or Dexterity saves with advantage.”

Mercurial Striking Stance: You may want to explain this a bit: if you roll a 1 or 2 for damage, do you reroll until it’s 3 or higher, or do you just make it a 3?

Prey On The Weak: You’re including the bloodied condition?

Furious Barrage: You should probably expand this to say “You keep attacking until you miss, then you can’t attack again until your next turn” or something like that.

Wounded Animal Gambit: Another one that should be rewritten: “…you can immediately stand up and use a Tooth and Claw maneuver you know against it. Any melee attacks made as part of this maneuver are made with advantage. This maneuver costs points from your exertion pool, but no action is required to activated it.” Also, can you just attack, or do you have to use a maneuver?

Unending Wheel Maneuvers
So, this is the anime tradition, huh?

Throwing Stance: Can you throw any weapon with this? Like, can I hurl a greatsword?

Wounding Strike: Does gaining temp hp end the effect early?

Deflect Strike: Typo: number of d6s.

Any Weapon Stance: This shouldn’t be a maneuver. Toss it. Most martials already have access to all weapons, and at 4th degree, I’d guess that classes with limited weapon proficiencies (adepts, rogues) aren’t going to be able to get it. And while “rare weapons” might be something really interesting, it’s probably not worth it to waste a 4th-degree maneuver to get them.

Explosive Step: This is oddly worded. You have to use all your movement… do you then get an additional five feet of movement? Explosive Step feels more like a Tooth and Claw maneuver.

Wind Strike: Too magical for a nonmagical maneuver.

Heart of the Sword: I’m not sure I get the point of this. Lots of other maneuvers, including other Unending Wheel maneuvers, grant increased crit ranges. And this one does nothing else.
 
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Faolyn

Hero
3) Exertion cost is a big deal, and I still feel like the developers under estimate that. Especially the 3 exertion maneuvers, 3 exertion is a LOT!!! I have only 1 2 exertion maneuver, and though I feel it is actually worth the price of admission....it drops my total so quickly compared to if I just kept spamming 1 exertion maneuvers. The trick is with a good balance, you are often going to use 2 maneuvers in a round anyway through reactions and the like, so that exertion cost adds up really quick.
Good point. Even with the extra exertion fighters get, it's not a lot. I have to wonder if this is going to cause players to rely more heavily on the dreaded one-fight-then-rest combo.
 

I'm going to focus on just the basic maneuvers at first.

Disarming is too easy, right? And importantly, it is unheroic. I want to run a scene where the mid-level PC confronts the villain, and the evil minions run up and yank the hero's special magic sword away. I suppose this might just change player tactics, so they all carry backup weapons, but my understanding is that in real swordfighting, disarming someone is hard, and not something you expect to be able to pull off except in unusual circumstances.

I wonder if there's a way to model, like, 'basic disarming' (on a success, the target nearly drops the item and loses its next attack because it has to regain its grip), but to allow a full disarm on a critical hit, or if the attacker spends an exertion point to upgrade the effect.

Grabbing On appears to take an action (and possibly 2 squares of movement, since you're entering an enemy's space, which is difficult terrain?), while grappling seems to only cost an attack. And escaping a grapple or a grab requires an action. Is it intentional for grappling to be easier than escaping?

Disarming/overrun have a sliding scale of disadvantage/advantage based on relative size, while grab/grappling/knockdown/shove are just a toggle of yes/no based on size.

Grappling then dragging lets you move the target up to half your speed. Bull rushing lets you move the target based on how well you roll, but you don't move with them. I guess I'm okay with the inconsistency, but would it be better for them to be closer in execution?

Also, it's potentially possible for a normal person to shove another normal person 15 feet (again, without moving with them). I know this is a fantasy game, but that seems high. On the flip side, the most bad-ass high-level berserker hitting a peasant can't fling them probably more than 25 feet. I think personally I'd prefer shoves to just be 5 feet, unless you move with the person, and for the possible increase in distance to be tied to some other element of the character - maybe proficiency, or some sort of special ability - rather than due to random dice rolls.
 


Adamant Mountain
I wonder what everyone's expectations of combat duration are. If you've got 4 exertion at 5th level, and it replenishes on a short rest, you're doing two, maybe three maneuvers before you're tapped. So something like Warding Wield giving you +2 AC for one round . . . which won't make a difference on whether you get hit 90% of the time . . . strikes me as a bad option. If you use it 10 times, you'll expect to stop one hit. Maybe that stops a ton of damage, but at 5th level it probably blocks an average of 2 damage each time you use it, versus Catch Your Breath healing probably 4 or 5.

Heavy Stance. The name feels weird. Why is a tank good at navigating difficult terrain?

Shrug it Off. Should this have a duration, or is it just a one-time thing. Like, you swallow some cyanide and shrug, it does nothing to you. But if you're in a cloud of poison, you get one breath full of the noxious fumes and you shrug it off, but if you linger in the cloud, I guess you can't keep shrugging forever.

Bowling Blitz. It strikes me as odd that you can impale someone on a pike and throw them 20 feet, but you can't do the same maneuver with another weapon. For that matter, Cleaving Swing with a thrusting pike is kinda weird. Are these maneuvers keyed to heavy weapons for balance reasons, or flavor? Is there a real reason you want to prevent players from cleaving with, say, a longsword held in two hands, versus a greatsword? Lean Into It lets you knock someone down with an unarmed strike, knife, or whip, by contrast.

I agree that Wild Swing doesn't make sense as a thing only a high-level warrior can pull off.

Mighty Melee looks terrible. Give up two attacks and 3 exertion point so that, hm, maybe 4 attacks (2 more iterative attacks, haste, and an OA) can deal 16 total extra damage. At this level, your two attacks are probably going to do more than that anyway, right?

Plus, this is just math combat, where you shuffle some numbers around to try to make other numbers bigger. That's not narratively engaging.
 

Lefi2017

Explorer
So How will this impact the Mosnter the Cr 1/4 or Cr 2 Carian crawler? how about legendaries? This should not widen the power gap between pcs and monsters to much to ensure that cobat is still challenging I hope this will not slow down combat.

So there should be templates to dive monsters certain fitting styls or maneuvers as a template
 

dave2008

Legend
So How will this impact the Mosnter the Cr 1/4 or Cr 2 Carian crawler? how about legendaries? This should not widen the power gap between pcs and monsters to much to ensure that cobat is still challenging I hope this will not slow down combat.

So there should be templates to dive monsters certain fitting styls or maneuvers as a template
I don't know the reality of it, but the intent of these maneuvers (and A5e in general) is not to make PCs more powerful, but to give them more complexity / options. Therefore, the standard O5e monsters should work. In fact, Morrus has said multiple times that you can use the monsters from from the WotC books with A5e content. However, they are making a bestiary to give monsters a make over too.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
I don't know the reality of it, but the intent of these maneuvers (and A5e in general) is not to make PCs more powerful, but to give them more complexity / options. Therefore, the standard O5e monsters should work. In fact, Morrus has said multiple times that you can use the monsters from from the WotC books with A5e content. However, they are making a bestiary to give monsters a make over too.
Though of course to clarify — our monster book doesn’t make monsters more powerful, it makes them more interesting (and a little surprising sometimes) and adds useful GM tools to each entry. Like you say it’s about adding variety. Generally speaking A5E characters are about the same power level as O5E characters, but they have more options (and their ability scores are a little lower) and an entire exploration pillar to play in.
 

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