Leveling Characters

[HalfordAskold]

I have always hated when characters level. They just assume they automatically know how to cast higher level spells, or swing their sword easier better or pick locks better.

I like the idea of a fighter going to a school to have to learn to hit better. You don't have to play out the weeks or however long their PC is there, but he does need to deduct the costs and figure out the time. That way if the person isn't at the next game session you can always claim he's leveling.

How do you handle when a PC levels? I have heard that you need to train when you get a Feat. And spell casters have to find new spells, or belong to a guild. I guess that way if everyone is a true member of the Pathfinder Guild, they can get that stuff. But how do you handle ones that aren't?

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

I take it the opposite way, I love it. To me they have gone through the fire so to speak and become better at their abilities, they have encountered numerous enemies, been taught small techniques by friends, and have proven that they are a little bit better after a certain amount of time. So basically they have gained the worldly experience necessary for them to become better at what they do and have earned a bit more of a reputation in the process.

The only thing I'd have the characters "go to school for" is if they are multi-classing and they don't have another member of the group who could teach them the basics of that class. After initially learning that class, I have no problem with them leveling up as normal through experience in using their abilities again and being able to figure out for themselves what it takes to reach the next level in their development.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I like the idea of a fighter going to a school to have to learn to hit better.

I hate this.

I've never liked training rules (or "learn by doing" rules, much, either).

The adventure is the training.

 

[Systole]

I learned more in my first six months in the real world than I did in all of my classes in high school, college, and grad school put together. Conservatively speaking, I've had at least three different careers, and I went to school for one of them.

The idea that a character would have to go back to school to learn things that hard knocks couldn't teach him is frankly ludicrous to me. For Pete's sake, your character has been out fighting dragons, and you think some guy who's spent his life someplace safe and cushy like a university or a gymnasium has something to teach him? You've got it the wrong way around.

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

The idea that a character would have to go back to school to learn things that hard knocks couldn't teach him is frankly ludicrous to me. For Pete's sake, your character has been out fighting dragons, and you think some guy who's spent his life someplace safe and cushy like a university or a gymnasium has something to teach him? You've got it the wrong way around.

EXACTLY!!

Real world experience is king, a basic understanding is nice to have beforehand, but nothing beats the first hand experience.

 

[HalfordAskold]

I learned more in my first six months in the real world than I did in all of my classes in high school, college, and grad school put together. Conservatively speaking, I've had at least three different careers, and I went to school for one of them.

Even the military you have to go for training verse handing someone a gun and so 'go that way.' And unless you are born with the science and math and all the knowledge; you hope your doctor went to school (graduated) and made it all the way, don't you?

Ok, so maybe a fighter can just keep swinging his sword, but unless your rogue is up on the changing of traps, he might not know the newest ways or for that matter even recognize a new trap. Same with the magic throwing types: spells don't just 'magically' appear in their brains. And a holy type may be able to be more pious, but some rituals he is going to have to go to train somewhere.

The argument would be, this is role play. Agreed. And I am not saying they actually have to do any kind of schooling. But just to skip merrily along...

In the original D & D there weren't even rules for Professions or Crafts or others things, it was for combat. It was simple and that was fine. The combat was the thing. But it has changed and people wanted something more, or there wouldn't be the non-weapon proficiency and Professions and Crafts.

I've always said though, in your game, if that's how you play and everyone is having fun, more power to you. For me, I'd like a little something resembling some work in advancement.

 

[Systole]

Uh, for spontaneous casters, spells do just 'magically' appear in their brains. For divine casters, spells are a gift of the gods. Both of those are not subject to book-learnin'.

As for non-spontaneous arcane casters, the spells they get each level come from a different source. I quote Wizard - Pathfinder_OGC (emphasis mine):

Spells Gained at a New Level: Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, he gains two spells of his choice to add to his spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels he can cast. If he has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, one of the two free spells must be from his specialty school.

 

[KainG]

I treat levelling as dictacted in the game as the abstract it is: an indication of how skilled/powerful the character has become at that point in time of the story.

In my mind, characters are continuously learning and practicing, typically in whatever downtime or "off-screen" time they have, like camping for the night. That new feat you picked for this level? Well, you've actually been practicing on perfecting it so that you can actually use it in combat. That last fight with the orcs? That helped you nail down the last quirks in your ability to roll with the hits, something that you've been gradually trying to get better at with each fight. Hey wizard, you finally completed understanding that spell you've been working on, and can now cast it.

Every challenge overcome in the game adds to your character's experience (Get it? Cuz it's called Experience Points! Hyuk hyuk.). The nature of the game is unable to demonstrate that as a gradual improvement, so for me, levels are abstract milestones where we apply those improvements in a simple manner. Which is why I allow my players to level in between sessions even if in a dungeon.

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

Even the military you have to go for training verse handing someone a gun and so 'go that way.' And unless you are born with the science and math and all the knowledge; you hope your doctor went to school (graduated) and made it all the way, don't you?

Ok, so maybe a fighter can just keep swinging his sword, but unless your rogue is up on the changing of traps, he might not know the newest ways or for that matter even recognize a new trap. Same with the magic throwing types: spells don't just 'magically' appear in their brains. And a holy type may be able to be more pious, but some rituals he is going to have to go to train somewhere.

The argument would be, this is role play. Agreed. And I am not saying they actually have to do any kind of schooling. But just to skip merrily along...

In the original D & D there weren't even rules for Professions or Crafts or others things, it was for combat. It was simple and that was fine. The combat was the thing. But it has changed and people wanted something more, or there wouldn't be the non-weapon proficiency and Professions and Crafts.

I've always said though, in your game, if that's how you play and everyone is having fun, more power to you. For me, I'd like a little something resembling some work in advancement.

I still have to adamantly disagree with this assessment. Yes you'd be trained at first with the gun, but after the initial training it takes years of practice to hone your skill, not years in the classroom listening to an instructor. I think of these characters that we play in RPGs as heroes, they are the best of the best, they are the smartest, fastest, and most powerful of people in the world. They advance quickly when they see something done, they practice constantly whether it be against each other sparring or whether it be against enemies they fight along their journeys.

A rogue for example would know the basics, he'd have a small knowledge base to work off of and from there he'd hone his skill with PRACTICE (or in other words skill challenges via his thievery checks). This gives him more time to develop his skill, notice other nuances that he hasn't seen before and really get a feel for the new traps, perhaps during the evenings at camp he is thinking over what he's seen and is practicing with making new traps/devices. Maybe he's part of a guild in a city adventure and the other rogues are giving him simple pointers during the "downtime." However you want to look at it, he needs not formal schooling or training to become better at his craft. He needs the experience, ala experience points, meaning he's done what he needs to via his fighting skills, his trap detection, and his trap dismantling to gain the next level of knowledge and that next "level" up.

The same goes with each and every class, they are practicing what they've learned throughout their careers in the adventuring world and gaining knowledge/experience throughout their time there. They develop their own skill-sets based on these experiences and hone their own unique styles to fit it whether they are feats or powers, prayers or sword techniques.

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

I treat levelling as dictacted in the game as the abstract it is: an indication of how skilled/powerful the character has become at that point in time of the story.

In my mind, characters are continuously learning and practicing, typically in whatever downtime or "off-screen" time they have, like camping for the night. That new feat you picked for this level? Well, you've actually been practicing on perfecting it so that you can actually use it in combat. That last fight with the orcs? That helped you nail down the last quirks in your ability to roll with the hits, something that you've been gradually trying to get better at with each fight. Hey wizard, you finally completed understanding that spell you've been working on, and can now cast it.

Every challenge overcome in the game adds to your character's experience (Get it? Cuz it's called Experience Points! Hyuk hyuk.). The nature of the game is unable to demonstrate that as a gradual improvement, so for me, levels are abstract milestones where we apply those improvements in a simple manner. Which is why I allow my players to level in between sessions even if in a dungeon.

Funny I wrote pretty much the same thing while you were posting and didn't see it until after mine posted