Leveling Likes

[Mark CMG]

In RPGs (and even CRPGs) where characters level, what sort of things do you like about leveling? What things do you wish were tied to leveling? What sort of things are traditionally tied to leveling that could be done otherwise? Are there limits to how much should be tied to leveling? At each level? Are there limits to how much leveling should happen? Leveling, leveling, leveling . . .

 

[S'mon]

I like getting new powers and abilities that let me crush my enemies, drive them before me, and hear the lamentation of their women. I particularly enjoy becoming more powerful vs existing in-game foes, I don't want goblins to all become 2nd level just because I hit 2nd.

 

[Aberzanzorax]

Broadly:

I like that level is a measure of basic power level, an attempt to keep players on par with one another.

I dislike some level "restrictions" in terms of simulation. E.G. I'd say most Supreme Court Justices in the U.S. have just about max skill points in profession, law. To create them in D&D, they would need to be lvl 20 experts or somesuch. That means most supreme court justices could waste most 5th level characters, or wrestle a lion, defeat a troll singlehandedly, etc.

I also dislike some of the increasing imbalance with level in 3e, which is somewhat repaired by pathfinder. Here I mean the great disparity of good and bad saves and skills that are in class versus crossclass.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Broadly:

I like that level is a measure of basic power level, an attempt to keep players on par with one another.

I dislike some level "restrictions" in terms of simulation. E.G. I'd say most Supreme Court Justices in the U.S. have just about max skill points in profession, law. To create them in D&D, they would need to be lvl 20 experts or somesuch. That means most supreme court justices could waste most 5th level characters, or wrestle a lion, defeat a troll singlehandedly, etc..

Agreed which is why I came up with a simple two feats that built upon and required skill focus but had years spent doing (and decades spent doing) as pre-requisites. This was to garner a +10 and +20 mastery bonus (where same named bonuses do not stack) to the skill. It was then reasonable to have a 3rd or 6th level grand master of a craft without the issues with being 20th level and good at everything else as well. Pretty simple really.

As for levelling, there are too many things to mention at this late hour, I shall instead get some sleep and give some further thoughts tomorrow. I'm looking forward to seeing where this thread goes - good topic.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Balesir]

Levels in a gamist style of system are more-or-less obligatory - designing a gamist-supporting game without levels would be an interesting challenge, I think, actually. For gamist play I prefer D&D 4E's approach of scaling just about everything to level. The "20th level commoner" issue is dealt with well there, too, by just having a total system separation between the characters (player-side system) and the setting (DM-side system); I find in practice this works really well.

For non-gamist style systems I try to avoid character levels at all costs. Gamism is a pretty powerful magnet to the typical player's attention focus, and xp and levels tend to suck them towards a gamist focus, even when that is not the intent of play.

 

[Dioltach]

What I like about levelling is the sense of having achieved something. I played in one 2E AD&D campaign for years, where XP and treasure were few and far between, and it seemed like there was never any progress. With d20, levelling is faster and there are more benefits attached. Better saves, better BAB, hit points, skill ranks. Having these quantifiable improvements on a fairly regular basis keeps me more focused and more excited.

I think that in 2E the benefits from levelling does not reflect the amount of effort required. My 7th level Ranger needs something like 75,000 XP to gain a level, and will then have a slightly better THAC0 and a few more hit points. My group games more or less once a month, so to level up within one year, I'd need to get more than 6,000 XP every session, which means that basically we'd have to kill a dragon every time.

And when a higher level means facing opponents with more magical attacks and defences, the minor improvements from gaining a level in 2E simply aren't enough. D20 assumes that your equipment also improves. True, that's very much down to the DM, but I like that it's been incorporated into the system.

So essentially, I like it when your character visibly improves with a level, to be able to meet new challenges, and when you can look forward to reaching a new level within a relatively short space of time and without requiring ridiculous amounts of impossible victories.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

What I like about levelling is the sense of having achieved something.

I think what you describe here is the reason level-based systems have always been so popular when compared to less granular systems even when the rate of advancement is the same. The punctuated nature of level-advancement hits the Skinner pigeon in us.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

In addition to Dioltach's good post, I'd say that I like *choices* when a level-up comes around.

Part of the reason I don't care for 2E-and-earlier editions as much as I used to is that all* of the character-creation decisions are made when you create the character. There are, effectively, no changes through play.

While many people do play 3.XE and 4E that way - listing out their build order before play starts, essentially creating a modern version of a 2E kit - it is not required by the system, and even then, those players can still change their mind at a later date.

I really like some of the ideas in the Wheel of Time RPG that came out several years ago, but when I looked through it again recently, the "early 3E-ness" of it really stuck out to me. The number of meaningful decisions each player gets to make when leveling up is really limited - especially if you are, for instance, playing an armsman.

I'm much more fond of more modern d20 rulesets, like 4E, Saga, or Pathfinder, which have by-and-large expanded on the number of decisions you can make while leveling your character.

* Barring dual-class humans, anyway, and the odd weapon proficiency point.

 

[Diamond Cross]

Actually, White Wolfs' WOD (old and new) is a good example of Classless and levelless "leveling". Many superhero games also do this as well as Gurps.

 

[Ed_Laprade]

Actually, White Wolfs' WOD (old and new) is a good example of Classless and levelless "leveling". Many superhero games also do this as well as Gurps.

How come Runequest gets so little love on these classless and leveless threads? It pretty much started them.