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D&D 5E Levels and Spell Levels - what's your preference for 5E?

Spell levels - what's your preference?

  • Traditional: the 1-9 (or 10) scale of spell levels is best in life

    Votes: 49 40.8%
  • 4E Style: spell level mirrors character level

    Votes: 43 35.8%
  • Traditional scale but renamed (rank, circle, order, etc)

    Votes: 19 15.8%
  • Other (explain)

    Votes: 9 7.5%

I'd be okay with the option of just dropping the entire idea of spell levels, and build spells in some way that doesn't depend on gaining slots of ever higher levels and filling those slots with higher level spells. The entire system is clunky and unnecessary, when it work a lot better if all spells were treated equally and simply rise in power as the caster's level does.
 

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I don't mind the "traditional" way but at the same time I can see lots of design space here for different caster types being able to cast different spell levels at different character levels. 3e gently waved at this concept with the Sorcerer not getting spells at the same levels as other caster types, but it could be taken a lot further:

Where the numbers listed are the class level at which you get access to the next level (or circle) of spells (and ignoring cantrips), here's an off-the-cuff example:

Wizard (standard): 1-3-5-7... as always; with 9 circles
Cleric (normal): 1-3-5-8-10... with 7 circles
Cleric (non-combat): 1-2-4-6-7... with 10 smaller spell circles
Sorcerer (or similar): 2-4-6-9-11... with 6 circles
Druid: 1-3-6-9-12... with 9 circles

And so on.

Lan-"going round in circles"-efan
 

Spells should match levels. It's a lot easier to figure out what kind of spells you get when the tables match up. But really it doesn't bother me either way, as long as there's a clear-cut way to figure out what spells you get, I'm happy.
 

Finally, having more spell levels allows more gradations in power between spells of similar power.

IMHO it's a double-edged sword... In theory more gradations is better, but in practice the power of a spell is still partially subjective (and campaign-dependent) so having less grades to choose from can actually be a relief for designers and DMs.

I think of it a bit like when you are grading something, e.g. a music album or a movie in IMDB. Too few levels are not good but neither are too many. If you have to pick only from two grades for a movie (good/bad) it's irritating because many times you wouldn't want to pick either. If you have to pick a % grade, it becomes ridiculous (what does 73% mean? how is that different from 74%?).

I believe the number of levels good to cover all classical D&D spells can be something between 6-7 and ~15, but then 10 levels is a nice round.

I wouldn't mind more, but then there's the additional problem (and this is IMHO much more important) that the more levels you divide your spells into, the lesser number of spells of each level you can choose from, which means reduced diversity among characters.
 

While I am a 0-9 spell level guy, give me a table with what spell levels I get at which PC level and I'm good. Anyone who can't figure that out prooobably shouldn't be trying to play a caster in the first place.

Be that as it may, what if we did away with spell levels period. You're a caster, you find and learn spells as you find and learn spells.

The difference comes with the spell effects! Damage (for the purpose of example, let's just go with d6 per PC level), Area of effect/Range (let's go with 10' burst or radius, depending on the spell, per PC level), Duration...a little more iffy, but let's propose, just for argument's sake, 3 rounds per level.

So, if you are a 1st level Mage who, by the grace of the DM has/finds/learns "Fireball"....That's great. Have at it. It's a 10' burst of fire that does d6 damage, save for half. When you're 5th level, you're throwing a 50' burst doing 5d6.

A 3rd level mage with Charm Person will effect anyone within a 30' radius of the caster for 9 rounds (after which they will probably not be very happy). Same/similar for Sleep.

Magic missiles fire by a 10th level mage will have a range of 100' and do potentially 10d6 damage. These "missiles/blasts" maybe divided up as the mage sees fit, so 2 bolts of 5d6 each, 5 bolts of 2d6, etc. are possible. (and yes, absolutely, Magic Missiles always hit! They're maaaaagiiiic. :P

Web for a 1st level Mage could encompass 10' blast (so, roughly, maybe 2 human-sized individuals) and the webs fade/break after 3 rounds. A web spell from a 7th level mage could encompass 70' (be it horizontal or vertical), arguably webbing a giant, maybe two or three for up to 21 rounds.

So...spells are just...Spells. Mystical arcane formulae that the wizard is driven to find and learn to increase their power...and the effectiveness of the spell is what goes up with the caster's level...not the innate "circle/tier/level/mystery" of the spell itself?

What say you?
--SD
 

One thing I don't want is spell level to determine the "DC" or "attack bonus" of spells, that was one of the worst things in 3e that made a lot of lower level spells obsolete.

While I think spell levels equal to character level is fine, I also wouldn't mind spells of levels 0-10 if all classes that got such things got spells of levels 0-10. Having a class' spells limited to levels 4 or 6, made them their abilities feel very limited and secondary. They just have to design things like 9th level Bard spells simply don't have the same bang as 9th level Wizard spells, but they're roughly equivalent in power in parallel ways.
 

So...spells are just...Spells. Mystical arcane formulae that the wizard is driven to find and learn to increase their power...and the effectiveness of the spell is what goes up with the caster's level...not the innate "circle/tier/level/mystery" of the spell itself?

What say you?

I think if you did that straight, you'd run into the same issues that caused them to put damage dice caps and similar restriction in the first place. Plus, you need some way to explain what a 1st level disintergrate does. Try that on a dragon, and all it does is remove any mold or dust from his scales. :D

That said, I think you could combine the basics of the idea with their statement of flirting with spell slots being about the power of the spell that goes in them, rather than the level of the spell. Assume that such slots are on the same scale as the caster. Say a 5th level wizard has 3 1st level slots, 2 3rd level slots, and 1 5th level slot. He can put any spell he wants in that 5th level slot, and it will get 5th level characteristics.

Then for the issues of caps, those are essentially minimum and maximum ranges of effectiveness. Say disintergrate scales by caster level, ranging in effectiveness from 10th to 20th. That means that you can put it in any slot of 10th to 20th level, and get the resulting effects. You can put it in a lower level slot, but it will basically fizzle. You must be "this tall" to use it. Whereas sleep might range from 1st to 10th. You can put it in a greater slot if you want, but the spell caps out at 10th caster level. You can only put so much sleep juice in a hose.

Or in other words, casters have level-based slots, that correspond to what they can do, and thus are scaled on the caster levels. Whereas spells have no particular level, but do fit in a band. Spells are more concerned with boundaries than the precise level of the effect. This will make them easier to get right, since the precise level is not important.

Naturally, that is going to cause spells to fall into a handful of bands that will get named (for clean design purposes, if nothing else), though probably less than 9 or 10 such bands. IMHO, there are about 5 or 6 clear jumps in power in all of D&D magic (all versions), from cantrips to wishes. Me, I'd name these bands as "circles" and tie them to some kind of skill on the apprentice to master range, so that apprentices cast "cantrips" and so on. You'd naturally have some overlap in the spell boundaries. So a 5th level "journeyman" caster will find spells that cap off at 1st or 2nd, some built around his level, and others that he can barely do (5th level lower boundary). That should span at least three bands.

Note that one of the nice things about such a system is that you have a lot more flexibility in how the casters pick up slots. Instead of the traditional 3/2/1 type of mix of 1st through 3rd level "spell slots", you might give a caster a base of one slot per caster level. So a 5th level wizard has one 1st level slot, one 2nd level slot, etc. to one 5th level slot. As before, he can put any spell with the correct boundaries in those slots. Then provide some class bonuses, feats, etc. to expand that a bit for customization. OTOH, a lesser caster, such as a bard, might only get a base slot at 1st, 3rd, and 5th. The power of his 5th level slot is as good as the wizards (depending upon what he has found to put in it), but he doesn't have near the flexibility. Alternately, you can have straight adjustments. Maybe the bard's slots are always 2 levels behind his character level--i.e. he gets one slot per character level, but not for his most recent two levels.
 
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I kinda like the idea of saying "you can cast X spells per day," and "every spell has a minimum caster level," but then making every spell take up the same slots. This only works, though, if X is pretty small.

And maybe there'd be an option to try to cast spells beyond your level, with a risk of backlash.
 

I'm guessing that WotC will go back to 0-9 because they're trying to appeal to players of earlier editions.

That said, I think the "spell level = character level" system is much, much easier for new players to learn, and that's a good thing. If you don't want 20 levels of spells, then you can just have Level 1 spells, Level 3 spells, Level 5 spells and so on. When you get to 7th level, you can start casting 7th-level spells (even if they would have been called 4th level or something like that in an earlier edition).
 

I'm guessing that WotC will go back to 0-9 because they're trying to appeal to players of earlier editions.

That said, I think the "spell level = character level" system is much, much easier for new players to learn, and that's a good thing. If you don't want 20 levels of spells, then you can just have Level 1 spells, Level 3 spells, Level 5 spells and so on. When you get to 7th level, you can start casting 7th-level spells (even if they would have been called 4th level or something like that in an earlier edition).

Fair Enough. But if you are going to do that, why have spell levels at all? Why not just say that spells
a) Have a minimum caster level
b) Cost X amount to resources to learn/use
 

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