Liches and their unarmed attacks.
- Thread starter Joker
- Start date
James McMurray
First Post
Well, those last two posts just go to show you that I haven't retained every page I've read in the books. 
Ok, the follower thing aside, you can still teleport to your clerical cohort and get healing, so the point is still valid.
As for those who (rudely) say it is unbalancing to have an adversary who can heal himself with a touch, what do they think of the party fighting Paladins? Or celestials with Lay on Hands? Or anyone else who can heal themselves with a touch? Sure, those guys' abilities are limited in uses, but they are more than enough for your standard NPC.
Also, a lich who is in battle with a party is more than likely going to need more than a measly 1d8+5 damage healed. The only time it would come into play is when the thing escapes. Whether it heals itself with touches, or with some other means is really immaterial while the thing is "off stage" so to speak.
Is it unbalancing to be able to drop a Lich to 1d4 hit points with hardly a moment's thought? If so, better ban Heal as well, or even worse, Mass Heal. It doesn't even require a touch.
I still go with my original interpretation, and I would be very surprised if anyone who knew me actually said the rules don't matter to me. I'm generally as rules-lawyery as they come(although I try to avoid causing any problems during a game).
Ok, the follower thing aside, you can still teleport to your clerical cohort and get healing, so the point is still valid.
As for those who (rudely) say it is unbalancing to have an adversary who can heal himself with a touch, what do they think of the party fighting Paladins? Or celestials with Lay on Hands? Or anyone else who can heal themselves with a touch? Sure, those guys' abilities are limited in uses, but they are more than enough for your standard NPC.
Also, a lich who is in battle with a party is more than likely going to need more than a measly 1d8+5 damage healed. The only time it would come into play is when the thing escapes. Whether it heals itself with touches, or with some other means is really immaterial while the thing is "off stage" so to speak.
Is it unbalancing to be able to drop a Lich to 1d4 hit points with hardly a moment's thought? If so, better ban Heal as well, or even worse, Mass Heal. It doesn't even require a touch.
I still go with my original interpretation, and I would be very surprised if anyone who knew me actually said the rules don't matter to me. I'm generally as rules-lawyery as they come(although I try to avoid causing any problems during a game).
Cool points...
Vampire... and other regenerating/healing ability creatures... these abilities are clearly defined ans spelled out and included in the character entries. Furthermore, looking at vamps, the base vamp does not have access to auto-exit powers. The base lich level is 11-12 and as either cleric or mage that means he has access to teleport or word of recall and the like.
Paladins healing on a touch is a concrete limited amount.
Curing spells are a concerete and limited amount.
At will or on touch is not a concrete or limited amount.
NOTE: When i run lihes, the most likely method of curing they have are inflict wounds potions, vampiric touch spells with chained lackeys, and the like. Each of these results in a concrete and limited amount of healing, at various levels of speed.
No one, i think, is arguing that a lich using 1d8+5 IN COMBAt is imbalanced. They are arguing that an average of 8-9 HP back per round OOC is when the creature has easy escape abilities.
They might even be arguing that it makes NO SENSE for the creatures internal/normal/natural negative energy casues him to heal but only when applied through his hand? its akin to saying the way to cure a slash on your left arm is to draw blood from your right arm and apply it. This is however just a "world sense" kind of thing and not rules or game or balance.
Frankly, as i recall in faerun there are lots of "custom lich abilities" rules which allow you to make every lich unique by addin special things not normal to the type, and each of these raises his CR by an amount. The "feels himself up good" healing would sound like a prime candidate for that type of thing, as a house rule, IMO. (Tho i as Gm would be very cautious with this, myself.)
Vampire... and other regenerating/healing ability creatures... these abilities are clearly defined ans spelled out and included in the character entries. Furthermore, looking at vamps, the base vamp does not have access to auto-exit powers. The base lich level is 11-12 and as either cleric or mage that means he has access to teleport or word of recall and the like.
Paladins healing on a touch is a concrete limited amount.
Curing spells are a concerete and limited amount.
At will or on touch is not a concrete or limited amount.
NOTE: When i run lihes, the most likely method of curing they have are inflict wounds potions, vampiric touch spells with chained lackeys, and the like. Each of these results in a concrete and limited amount of healing, at various levels of speed.
No one, i think, is arguing that a lich using 1d8+5 IN COMBAt is imbalanced. They are arguing that an average of 8-9 HP back per round OOC is when the creature has easy escape abilities.
They might even be arguing that it makes NO SENSE for the creatures internal/normal/natural negative energy casues him to heal but only when applied through his hand? its akin to saying the way to cure a slash on your left arm is to draw blood from your right arm and apply it. This is however just a "world sense" kind of thing and not rules or game or balance.
Frankly, as i recall in faerun there are lots of "custom lich abilities" rules which allow you to make every lich unique by addin special things not normal to the type, and each of these raises his CR by an amount. The "feels himself up good" healing would sound like a prime candidate for that type of thing, as a house rule, IMO. (Tho i as Gm would be very cautious with this, myself.)
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
Paladins have a limit to how much they can heal themselves. Liches wouldn't. This is like the Great Cleave/Whirlwing combo... legal, but very disgusting.
James McMurray
First Post
What about Ghaele Celestials? They have Cure Light Wounds at will, i.e. they can heal themselves (and others) 1d8 + 5 hit points per round. They also have teleport without error at will, meaning they can auto-exit with the best of them. Should they be banned? Their CR is the same as the weakest Lich.
Also, not sure right off hand the rules on temporary hitpoints, but if they heal when you're damaged, then even the lowly Lantern Archon has access to infinite healing, but also for his friends.
Also, not sure right off hand the rules on temporary hitpoints, but if they heal when you're damaged, then even the lowly Lantern Archon has access to infinite healing, but also for his friends.
Voadam
Legend
Petrosian said:
From the srd on vamps:
Gaseous Form (Su): As a standard action, a vampire can assume gaseous form at will, as the spell
cast by a 5th-level sorcerer, but can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability.
Fast Healing (Ex): A vampire heals 5 points of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hit
point. If reduced to 0 hit points or lower, a vampire automatically assumes gaseous form and
attempts to escape. It must reach its coffin home within 2 hours or be utterly destroyed. (It can travel up to nine miles in 2 hours.) Once at rest in its coffin, it rises to 1 hit point after 1 hour, then resumes healing at the rate of 5 hit points per round.
So vamps can turn gaseous at will and fly at 20. This is a good escape at will ability. Your argument that at will abilities are more powerful than prepared limited resource prepared spells applies here.
Even when brought to zero it can auto-exit and reform as a lich going to its phylactery can. Granted it has to fly gaseously at 20 while a lich just goes but they are both exit and reform abilities.
Voadam
Legend
The arguments against seem to break down into three different arguments.
1. rules base, the negative energy lich touch does not explicitly state it cures undead.
2. game balance, unlimited touch healing is powerful.
3. Flavor, it is the lich's own energy so it cannot heal itself.
Counterarguments
1 it says negative energy can heal undead and the touch operates exactly as the example they use.
2 yes it is tough but compare to fast healing vampires.
3 channeling external or internal energy is not specified and is a flavor choice. External energy channeling works as a concept for the touch.
1. rules base, the negative energy lich touch does not explicitly state it cures undead.
2. game balance, unlimited touch healing is powerful.
3. Flavor, it is the lich's own energy so it cannot heal itself.
Counterarguments
1 it says negative energy can heal undead and the touch operates exactly as the example they use.
2 yes it is tough but compare to fast healing vampires.
3 channeling external or internal energy is not specified and is a flavor choice. External energy channeling works as a concept for the touch.
