Liches and XP

smetzger · Oct 13, 2004

You get XP each time you accomplish your objective. The first encounter seems like the objective will be to kill the lich; probably the second also.

However, when and if the objective shifts to destroying the lich then they only get XP for actually destroying it.

dcollins · Oct 13, 2004

Inconsequenti-AL said:
How would you award XP for this combat?
Do they get some kind of XP award every time they kill her off?

Minority opinion these days: I award fractional XP whenever an enemy is defeated but not killed. For example, in this case, I award 1/2 XP for the first defeat, 1/4 the next time. Rest of the XP if they actually finish the lich off.

The lich's phylactery ability shouldn't just be an empty gesture; it should really make it harder for the PCs to qualify as "defeating" the lich. Moreover, I don't want any enemy to serve as an XP-reservoir that they can go back and dip into time, and time again, without limit.

Len · Oct 13, 2004

dcollins said:
Moreover, I don't want any enemy to serve as an XP-reservoir that they can go back and dip into time, and time again, without limit.

How is that any different from defeating different enemies every session? Every time I play, the DM provides challenging combats. Why should the XP be different just because the enemy has the same name as the one we fought last week?

Inconsequenti-AL · Oct 13, 2004

dcollins - that's the frame of mind I had when I started the thread... Thinking about it, I'm now inclined to award them full XP until they work out what's going on. At that point it switches over to trying to deal with the Phylactery... Unless they're fighting her to do that, then it'd be a reduced award, I think.

I'm pretty sure they wouldn't go for harvesting... just doesn't seem like their sort of thing... If they did, then I could have her get some ridiculous friends for no good reason:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/article.php?a=107

uzagi_akimbo · Oct 13, 2004

Inconsequenti-AL said:
dcollins - that's the frame of mind I had when I started the thread... Thinking about it, I'm now inclined to award them full XP until they work out what's going on. At that point it switches over to trying to deal with the Phylactery... Unless they're fighting her to do that, then it'd be a reduced award, I think.

I'm pretty sure they wouldn't go for harvesting... just doesn't seem like their sort of thing... If they did, then I could have her get some ridiculous friends for no good reason:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/article.php?a=107

Sorry if I disagree - A lich's phylactery is one of its defensive mechanisms - so if the objective is to rid the world of the Lich, no XP until they have destroyed it and its phylactery for good - hence no more returns. You wouldn't award XP for a troll bashed and pulped to several hundred negative HP; then left to "die" which regenerates up to full HP again, and award HP for each battle either , would you ?
Liches are hard to defeat permanently, tough luck. And just as an aside, every time the Lich returns, he will have less useful equipment to outfit himself, so becomes easier to overcome, on each try, even it learns from its previous defeats.

On the other hand, if the group's objective is simply to foil its plans or even only get past it, award normal XP. That is, for the first round. I guess when the Lich returns, he will go to great lengths to get its revenge on the PCs, so that would constitue an entirely new challenge and objective. But after that time, no more XP for this Lich itself until they defeat it once and for all.

And btw, even if your players maybe be in the dark about Liches and phylaceries - a player with a high skill in knowledge (arcana) or (religion) should be given some hint or maybe fed some tidbit about Lich's abilities and customs, and thereby be directed to the realisation that to destroy a Lich, you need to do more than batter it down and smash its coprse. Although I am talking say at least a dozen ranks of knowledge here, to maybe have heard about such inconvenient undead habits.......

Xael · Oct 13, 2004

uzagi_akimbo said:
You wouldn't award XP for a troll bashed and pulped to several hundred negative HP; then left to "die" which regenerates up to full HP again, and award HP for each battle either , would you ?

I would, if there's enough time between fights. You don't need to kill stuff to earn experience. Just bybassing them is enough. I probably wouldn't award full XP for the multiple fights though, but this depends on the situation. But I wouldn't give full XP for under- or unequipped Lich (or any other NPC) either.

Though our group usually just digs a hole and buries trolls alive if we don't have any way to deal enough fire damage...

painandgreed · Oct 13, 2004

Does the CR for Lich take the regeneration into account? If it does, then they get a reduced CR value for merely defeating it that one time. If it doesn't, then they get full. In the mean time the CR might go up as the Lich learns more about the PCs and tailors her plots and traps for them specifically.

As for the troll question, yes, I'd give them full XP or close to it. Challenges result in experience. Whether or not they actually kill the thing isn't really a factor unless the CR included extra above and beyond that for regeneration. Any encounter, including even meeting and running away from a returning lich would result in some XP to match the challenge they faced. f coruse, the quicker they run away, the less of a challenge they faced, let alone overcame.

HellHound · Oct 14, 2004

We always considered the CR boost of the Lich to include the benefit of immortality.

Defeating a lich in our game gives full XP the first time, and then the balance of full XP the final time.

Every time in between, it grants 1/2 the earlier XP granted...

Scharlata · Oct 14, 2004

dcollins said:
Minority opinion these days: I award fractional XP whenever an enemy is defeated but not killed. [...]

Me too!
It makes more sense to me

Kind regards

Li Shenron · Oct 14, 2004

HellHound said:
We always considered the CR boost of the Lich to include the benefit of immortality.

If that was true, then immortality would be worth a mean +1 to CR (unless you consider all the other lich specials being worth no CR altogether) which doesn't really sound the case!

I know why this sort of thought: a creature's abilities are always said to be affecting their CR, so for example you don't get Xp for killing a summoned creature because it's part of the summoner's Xp, right?

But this sort of immortality really changes NOTHING in the encounter difficulty. It may (if you don't kill the Lich at the first encounter) make the adventure more difficulty, effectively creating a second encounter, but it doesn't make the Lich more powerful in the first one. That's why I think it doesn't really affect its CR.
Incidentally you DO GET the Xp for defeating an Outsider which for some unknown reason may not really die permanently unless killed on its home plane, you don't expect to not be given Xp until you go to his plane to do that...

HellHound said:
Defeating a lich in our game gives full XP the first time, and then the balance of full XP the final time.

Every time in between, it grants 1/2 the earlier XP granted...

That is in fact a very good idea to handle it! In a way it makes the player think that the characters are not learning much from defeating the same foe over and over (it's like solving the same math problem twice: the first time is when you really learn something, the following are at best mere refresh exercises), therefore they get "less experience" than before. They will get some extra once they finally "learn" how to overcome the final challenge of permanently kill it. I like it!