Liches

[nikolai]

Any advice on the best supplements for running these? I imagine there's a lot of stuff out there.

Also, how do you get around this problem. Liches are at +2 EL, so when they're up against a party they're really only as good at spell casting as the party wizard. To really be able to have the Lich do something surprising, you need to run the encounter at +3/+4 the party level. And even then you can have problems with getting the highest spell level over those available to the PCs.

nikolai.

 

[the Jester]

So you're saying you don't want to use an encounter 2-4 ELs higher than the party's level? Why's that?

 

[BigFreekinGoblinoid]

So you're saying you don't want to use an encounter 2-4 ELs higher than the party's level? Why's that?

I think he is saying that 2 would be fine ( but perhaps too easy based on spellcasting? ), and he is asking if 4 would be too much.

answer -I dunno. I think a properly run encounter four levels above party level would quickly kill at least several of my PC's. If they work very well together, that might be a different strory.

 

[the Jester]

imho, a lich should never be an easy encounter. ELs are calibrated so that an encounter of the party's EL is a pushover.

Be mean, is my advice.

 

[KingOfChaos]

I agree with Jester. A lich should be a memorable villain that PCs fear. Don't make them just a skeleton with spells, in other words.

As far as books about liches go, I know Goodman Games has one out, and Bottle Imp Games is about to release one as well. They might provide you with a few more resources.

 

[Mouseferatu]

The only lich encounter I've run since 3E began--I love liches as villains, but I really try not to overuse them--was a 20th-level sorcerer lich vs. a party of five 18th-level PCs.

Nobody died, but the party got really badly trashed for the first few rounds.

The trick is, use spells to their fullest potential. The lich began the battle having already cast improved invisibility, fly, haste (back when haste gave you two spells per round, stoneskin, and I think one or two others. Further, if he wasn't using area attack spells, he focused all his attacks on on person at a time; far better strategy, in most cases, than splitting your attacks among the various party members. There wasn't a lot the party could do, until the druid finally cast shapechange, turned into a dragon (thus gaining blindsight), and pinned him long enough for the rest of the party to obliterate him.

Point is, though, until someone got creative, the fight was definitely going the lich's way. Between the two extra levels and the CR adjustment of the lich template, he was a CR 22 encounter; but remember, the party had 5 members, not four.

Bottom line? Just going with a lich of 1 level higher than the party, or even of the same level, should be challenging enough if you plan things out properly ahead of time.

 

[johnsemlak]

Ohter books to check out:

Slayer's Guide to Undead (Gary Gygax)
Undead (AEG)

Encyclopedia Arcane-Necromancy also might be worth checking out.

 

[trancejeremy]

It's not out yet (should be out in a couple weeks), but based on their vampire book, Lords of the Night: Liches from Bottled Imp Games should be hard to beat.

 

[Ycore Rixle]

I really enjoyed Goodman Games's _The Complete Guide to Liches._ It has tons of sample lich NPCs and new lich templates, which makes it very useful for me. It also has new spells, rules for lich artifacts, rules for becoming a lich and crafting a phylactery, etc. It's the kind of product that I can bring to a table with me and actually _use_ during the game. Not in prep, not for inspiration, but actually use during the game. That's my favorite kind of product.

 

[Jolly Giant]

Longish and off target-ish I'm afraid...

After DM-ing since 3rd ed. came out, I finally got to put see a party go up against a lich this last friday! Major let-down... They interfered with a battle they were supposed to stay out of, but they insisted on butting in. A wiz35 lich vs. a wiz28/ftr8 lich, and the lvl 19-20 PCs decided to get involved!

Should mean certain TPK, right? Wrong!

One drd5/shifter15 PC destroyed the wiz35 lich with one single touch attack! He has a feat from Savage Species that can grant one supernatural ability of the creature he wild shapes into (at the cost of some minor penalties), so he took the form of a celestial (avoral iirc) with a lay-on-hands-ability and blasted the lich to pieces with positive energy during combat round one...

Liches are okay, but the shifter is broken!!! (even in 3.5)

Speaking of 3.5, the lich is now +4 EL...