Light Skills Revision (Basic Skills)

[Kaodi]

This may have been posted before (perhaps even by me), but...

I've always thought that if you wanted a small way in which to revise the skill system, you would divide skills up into three groups: Basic, Advanced and Exclusive; then dole them out to the appropriate classes (basically the ones that get them now). Anyone can take full ranks in basic skills, only some people can take full ranks in advanced skills, and only a couple people can take any ranks at all in exclusive skills.

I considered perhaps that all untrained skills would be basic, but that might unbalance things a bit. With this system, you might want to reduce the number of skills experts can pick to 8 or 6, to reflect that they too can take full ranks in any basic skill.

Also, on a different note, as a feat (or everyone, if you like) that can only be taken at 1st level, you can pick any advanced skill to be added to your list of class skills for all classes. I do believe there are feats similar to this, but moreso as regional feats, whereas this is generic.

I have never actually tried any of this, I am just looking for thoughts on the approach.

Now that I think a little more too, what it really comes down to, is what skills do you think everyone should have equal access to?

 

[Kaodi]

Starting List

Here are a few to start off with:

balance
climb
concentration
craft (all skills)
gather information
handle animal
jump
profession (all skills)
ride
survival
swim
use rope

 

[Li Shenron]

I don't understand if you are using this to replace the current system of class skills / cross class skills and (in 3.0 only) exclusive skills, or if you idea should work together with the core system.

 

[Kaodi]

Ok.

After I initially posted, I sort of realized that I had unneedfully complicated things with the whole Basic, Advanced, Exlcusive thing (though I still think of it that way).

In essence, it really just comes down to taking a list of skills that everyone should be able to learn equally well, and making them class skills for everyone. So, I believe that qualifies as " working with " the core system. Anyway, as to whether or not there *should* be a list of basic skills, that's why I started this thread, to ask you guys.

 

[Li Shenron]

I see...

Well of course you can try this way, it should definitely not make any problem. If you do, that list of yours makes very much sense to me.

 

[Thaniel]

I'll just throw my $0.02 in saying Exclusive skills are a terrible terrible idea.

"No, you can't learn how to do that. Period."

It reeks of 2e weapon proficiencies.

"I want to learn how to use this sword. Hmm? Oh, yeah, I'm a wizard. Oh. Damn. Nevermind."

 

[Kaodi]

Hmmm...

I originally came up with this back before v3.5 came out, when 3e had Animal Empathy and Use Magic Device as Exclusive Skills.

Now, Animal Empathy is gone, and I hadn't realized that now anyone could take ranks in Use Magic Device. My mistake.

When I made my first list of skills by category a couple days ago, it quickly became clear that I was putting most of the skills in Basic instead of Advanced. I was trying to think of it using real world logic, like, " If I wanted to learn to do this, what would stop me? " The answer usually tends to be, " Nothing. " and my list of Advanced skills was limited to appraise, decipher script, disable device, disguise, forgery, knowledge, open lock, sleight of hand, speak language and spellcraft. Not completely logical, but this *was* a first draft. That is why I posted here, to get more opinions, and see what other people would add/subtract from the list.

New List:
balance
bluff
climb
concentration
craft (all skills)
diplomacy
escape artist
gather information
handle animal
heal
intimidate
jump
knowledge (local)
listen
move silently
profession (all skills)
ride
search
sense motive
spot
survival
swim
tumble
use rope

At this point, everyone skill list starts to become very similar, but now the differences in skill points seem to be more fair. It's easier for a fighter to have some skill at a bunch of things, but it's still the rogue who is really good at them all.

 

[TheGM]

Just my thoughts on it, but why not model it more like RoleMaster's skill system?

In that system different classes pay different amounts for skills, much like D20, but it is more detailed and varied. The "common" stuff is all very cheap, but a wizard wanting to actually be good at thieving pays a whole lot more than the equivalent level theif to do it.

That would keep you from having "exclusive" skills, and just make them "hard to attain" skills.

Of course, in RM that permeates the system, so a fighter wanting to learn wizard spells doesn't "take a level of wizard", he pays out the nose just to be able to make his fingertips glow because it's not his specialty, but he can do it, and given enough levels and perseverance can even get pretty good at it.

You could keep the "three levels" idea you have, but instead of exclusive make it "go up 1 rank for 8 skill points", or something like that. Meaning a character working on something that was wayyy outside their expertise would have to spend a level or more of points to get it.

 

[Li Shenron]

I'll just throw my $0.02 in saying Exclusive skills are a terrible terrible idea.

"No, you can't learn how to do that. Period."

It reeks of 2e weapon proficiencies.

"I want to learn how to use this sword. Hmm? Oh, yeah, I'm a wizard. Oh. Damn. Nevermind."

There is basically nothing in 3rd edition that your character is not allowed to learn.

In the worst case, you need to multiclass and in some cases it may not seem possible (because of alignment) or convenient.

But really the only thing which may prevent you to do something is your alignment or religion.

Exclusive skills were meant to be the same thing as class features. If you say that it's necessary to allow everyone to use Animal Empathy or Use Magic Device, then why not Sneak Attack or Rage, why not healing spells or fireballs? In 3ed you can always learn all of them (again, except if you have an alignment incompatibility), but you may be required to multiclass, which is almost always a big cost.

(And by the way... Animal Empathy is even slightly more exclusive in 3.5 than in 3.0, because now it's not even a skill but a class feature altogether.)

Now one may say that it's unfair you need to multiclass, but class features are what keeps classes different in D&D, and if you don't like that you may be consider using generic classes instead of the traditional D&D classes, because difference is what they are all about