Light vs Darkness

[Frostbiter01]

Can anyone tell us how you DM a darkness spell or even light with spell checks? For instance do you need light to do a good appraise check on stones? We know color is an important attribute and darkvision shows no color but shades.

Say you are in cavern and a darkness spell is cast in the center. You have a light source on the other end. The cavern is 80' long thus the darkness covers the 40' in the center. Can you see through the darkness to the other side and see that area plainly? Can you see silhouettes in the darkness area easier due to a light back dropping on the other side? What if the party uses a spell to nullify the center like antimagic field can someone looking into the darkened area actually see them in the lit room as clear as if there was no darkness around them even though there was a 10' wall of darkness around the 10' radius antimagic field? I have archers on one side of the room who want to fire through the darkness area to the lit opening (torches) that 4 guards are stationed. DO they have a miss chance for firing through the darkness or are they seeing them just fine or do they not see them at all? Some have said the further back in the darkness the harder to see that the miss chance is for close up melee?

 

[The Crimson Binome]

The wording might be ambiguous, but the way I've always played it is that darkness blocks light from passing through it, so a long tunnel with magical darkness in the middle would prevent the light from either end being able to reach across the gap.

Non-magical darkness isn't actually darkness, per se, but just the lack of light - in that case, you would be able to see silhouettes just fine if you're looking through the enemies and into the light (although I'd probably still assign a 20% miss chance).

It's a gray area that the rules don't really cover, though. That's why the DM has to look at it and make a judgment call. I'd also say that you're at -8 to appraise a gem by darkvision, but that's just me.

 

[Dandu]

Unless you're a dwarf, of course.

 

[Frostbiter01]

Even Dwarves had the light of their forges and the lava they used! Not too mention the most rarest of jewels lit their entire kingdom like the Arkenstone!

Dandu thanks for the tips. Yes I was just speaking of magical darkness. In that it says everything is in shadow so you see shadowy movement We saw a show where the darkness covered an area but you could see all the area outside of the shadowy area like normal. IF it was like that way then looking through you would see the light at the other end which would give you better chances to hit their shadows. I think that sound good that light cannot pass though so you cant see the creatures or the torches on the far side of the cavern but neither an they see you moving to shoot at you until you get in the darkness right Or are you saying even then someone 20' outside of the magical darkness edge cannot fire at the showy figures in the darkness even if 30' into the darkness or just 5'?

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Keep in mind that darkvision doesn't work at all in magical darkness. Only demons and warlocks can see through magical darkness.

Then again, depending on the specific magic being used, magical darkness isn't necessarily dark. The regular old Darkness spell, in an otherwise well-lit hallway, would only lower the light level to the point where you can still mostly see through it. (A literal reading of the rules would say that it does this even if the room you are in was already pitch-black, but that's why you should never read anything too literally.)

 

[Frostbiter01]

Darkness and Deeper Darkness both say the area has shadowy illumination effecting even Darkvision. Even regular lights and spells under the level of the darkness spell are dispelled or don't work. It seems that they get concealment for this and full darkness would give you 50% concealment. But don't you have to be right next to the square. If in shadowy illumination you can fire at them with a bow into the darkness at the shadowy figure right? If so how deep into the 40' diameter sphere can you see these shadowy forms? Can you tell who are your guys and who are the bad guys without metagaming when looking at the minis on the board?

 

[Dandu]

I imagine so; the shadowy illumination is the same consistent level throughout the sphere.

And remember, a higher level Light spell trumps a Darkness spell.

 

[Frostbiter01]

Unfortunately, these answers still leave me with a bit of a quandary.

Here was our situation in the game.

The party went in to fight Derro. Now Derro have low light but not darkvision. As they entered the cavern there was a fire pit burning low. For the most part it was a natural cavern about 20' tall with both scattered stalactites and Stalagmites. The party came in about 10' when darkness began filling the cavern. The Derro had watched the approaching party nad sent in several darkness spells in the center covering the fire pit The cavern was about 80' long by 50' wide.

Some drew their Bows while others prepared spells. First they asked if they could see anything in the magical darkness ahead. Now here was the first issue. The Derro have good hide checks and because darkness gives shadowy illumination it helped them instead of just plain darkness. The fire pit according to the spell give off no light though I guess you could still see it as not to step into it.

Some Derro were moving closer to ambush those coming in. So the first question can those outside the darkness see into it and see small figures moving closer? If so what is the DC modifier? Is the modifier different for those that were 10’ inside the edge of darkness and the others who were 30’ into the darkness? What does those outside see inside. Is it just undiscernible shadows moving? The wizard wanted to cast a fireball into the darkness but not hit one of the Stalactites before it got to his point he desired. Would he be able to see those in the darkness area no matter how far away? The dwarf strode in with axe in hand while the Ranger and Rogue fired bow shots. The dwarf wanted to know what he saw once inside. Could he see his friends behind him outside the darkness when he stopped 10’ in? He said if we could see them in shadow then he should be able to look out clearly and see his party, do you agree or should we not have allowed the party to see into the darkness?

The dwarf wants to know what he can see. Can he see the Derro closing in on each side about to flank him? Can he see the cracks in the walls only visible from the center of the room and if so do they look like just black gaps on the walls or do all the walls look black thus no discernable opening can be seen. Can he see all the stalactites or just those closest? He wants to know if he can tell where the darkness ends. Can he see that some 30’ away? He wants to know if the darkness covers the whole cavern, can he see that? He wants to know if he can see Derro in the little bit of light by the exit tunnel across the way? Is it easier to see the Derro 10’ from him rather than the Derro 30’ away in the darkness? This was important because the 20% concealment would improve if distance made a difference possibly fading to deep darkness if went past say 10’ from his position. The party then moved in with two players with a continual flame spell which countered the darkness spell within its area of effect. The Derro had cast 4 overlapping darkness spells so they covered most of the cavern. Again the same questions came up. As the two went further into the cavern could those outside of the darkness see the unlit/normal darkness area inside the darkness? Could those moving with the Cont Flame spell see into the darkness beyond their countered darkness area and if so how deep into that darkness. Derro were inside the cracks ready to enter and I needed to know if they could see in and if the party could see the darkened cracks which were entry ways into other chambers housing two Derro each. What they could see, what my Derro could see was important for this encounter. Not only that but as the party entered and they lost their lights since they were not familiar with this cavern and if their sight was only good up to the area of effect of the darkness it meant that possibly they could not know which way was out after battling This is called misdirection in darkness. Another reason I needed to know what the party could see.

So you can see there were lots of points of contentions.

 

[Grogg of the North]

Here is what I've done with Darkness in the past.

Darkness emits "shadowy illumination"* so I've had it take everything down a category of brightness. Shadowy illumination becomes dark (no light). Bright light becomes shadowy. Darkvision and LLV do not work in magical darkness.

When darkness/light spells interact/counter/dispel, they allow normal light conditions to return.

It's not perfect but it works for me.



*Thus increasing the ambient light level? You! See me after class! - Me (DM) arguing with the Warlock/Rogue PC

 

[Frostbiter01]

Grogg, that may work. It is underdark so outside of caverns with luminescent fungus and toadstools we are talking black then in most cases. Except that the Derro need shadowy illumination for them to work their tactics thus they can cast darkness at will and have blind fighting. I will have to see how that works.