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<blockquote data-quote="the Jester" data-source="post: 6045405" data-attributes="member: 1210">If sleep's real weakness is its hp limit- and I think we can all agree that it is- then I don't think you need a save. I like the idea of different spells being balanced in different ways.That said, I think the hp threshold mechanic still needs some work.Uhh, I think you're forgetting coup de grace: you spend an action and reduce an unconscious creature to 0 hp. If it's already at 0, it dies. Sleep is FAR from the least powerful effect enchantments can produce, IMHO.I like the idea of a wide range of enchantment effects- charmed, asleep, fumbling (disadvantage on attacks and Str &amp; Dex checks), enraged, unobservant, etc. I hope we see a lot of this kind of thing.Charm person doesn't do that as is, and I love having a minor &quot;Be my buddy&quot; type spell available for lvl 1 casters.Hold person traditionally does clock in at 2nd - 3rd, so yeah, I'm ok with that one being more powerful. (Note that you cannot cdg a held creature; the key word in the playtest document's description of cdg is &quot;unconscious&quot;).OTOH I don't see summons as being enchantments at all. A permanent charm, though? <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devil.png"&nbsp; class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":devil:" title="Devil&nbsp; &nbsp; :devil:" data-shortname=":devil:" />It's a start, but like I said, I want breadth, not just depth. I want dire charm, Leomund's lamentable belabourment, geas, hope, fear, discord- all those and more.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="the Jester, post: 6045405, member: 1210"] If sleep's real weakness is its hp limit- and I think we can all agree that it is- then I don't think you need a save. I like the idea of different spells being balanced in different ways. That said, I think the hp threshold mechanic still needs some work. Uhh, I think you're forgetting coup de grace: you spend an action and reduce an unconscious creature to 0 hp. If it's already at 0, it dies. Sleep is FAR from the least powerful effect enchantments can produce, IMHO. I like the idea of a wide range of enchantment effects- charmed, asleep, fumbling (disadvantage on attacks and Str & Dex checks), enraged, unobservant, etc. I hope we see a lot of this kind of thing. Charm person doesn't do that as is, and I love having a minor "Be my buddy" type spell available for lvl 1 casters. Hold person traditionally does clock in at 2nd - 3rd, so yeah, I'm ok with that one being more powerful. (Note that you cannot cdg a held creature; the key word in the playtest document's description of cdg is "unconscious"). OTOH I don't see summons as being enchantments at all. A permanent charm, though? :devil: It's a start, but like I said, I want [i]breadth,[/i] not just depth. I want [i]dire charm, Leomund's lamentable belabourment, geas, hope, fear, discord-[/i] all those and more. [/QUOTE]

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