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<blockquote data-quote="kerleth" data-source="post: 6045506" data-attributes="member: 84383"><p>I have to respectfully disagree with your evaluation of sleep Ren. Not counting coup-de-grace, if you sleep an enemy in the middle of a fight (assuming they don't get woken up by the noise of fighting) another enemy has to waste a turn waking them up. And if they can't you take out all the other baddies and then team up on the remaining snorer. Or take him prisoner and interrogate him. Honestly though, I don't think of sleep as a combat spell. It is an "avoid combat" spell in my book. Knock out the two guards and sneak into the fortress. No bruises, no sign that they did anything but get lazy at their post. Being pursued by a group of goblins? Put the vanguard to sleep buying you time to slip away before the main force gets there. From my experience in gaming and associated fiction sleep is generally used as a "mook zapper". In that case an hp/hd/level limit of some sort is better than a will save. It's not for knocking out the minotaur so you can coup-de-grace him, it's for sneaking past guards. Making it a will save means it won't be as reliable for what (I feel anyways) it is intended for, while allowing it to muck up "boss fight" style encounters. I will agree that the current version needs work though.</p><p> </p><p>This leads into my next point, which is that I don't think all the spells so easily fit into a heirarchy. Some spells are different, not necessarily more powerful. Trying to shoehorn all of them into a ladder would then require tweaks to each of them to make sure they are explicitly better or worse than other spells, and next thing you know it all becomes very samey.</p><p> </p><p>Also, as another poster pointed out, charm person and dominate person are different things. Charm person does not turn an enemy into an ally for the remainder of a fight. It's uses are a bit more nuanced.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="kerleth, post: 6045506, member: 84383"] I have to respectfully disagree with your evaluation of sleep Ren. Not counting coup-de-grace, if you sleep an enemy in the middle of a fight (assuming they don't get woken up by the noise of fighting) another enemy has to waste a turn waking them up. And if they can't you take out all the other baddies and then team up on the remaining snorer. Or take him prisoner and interrogate him. Honestly though, I don't think of sleep as a combat spell. It is an "avoid combat" spell in my book. Knock out the two guards and sneak into the fortress. No bruises, no sign that they did anything but get lazy at their post. Being pursued by a group of goblins? Put the vanguard to sleep buying you time to slip away before the main force gets there. From my experience in gaming and associated fiction sleep is generally used as a "mook zapper". In that case an hp/hd/level limit of some sort is better than a will save. It's not for knocking out the minotaur so you can coup-de-grace him, it's for sneaking past guards. Making it a will save means it won't be as reliable for what (I feel anyways) it is intended for, while allowing it to muck up "boss fight" style encounters. I will agree that the current version needs work though. This leads into my next point, which is that I don't think all the spells so easily fit into a heirarchy. Some spells are different, not necessarily more powerful. Trying to shoehorn all of them into a ladder would then require tweaks to each of them to make sure they are explicitly better or worse than other spells, and next thing you know it all becomes very samey. Also, as another poster pointed out, charm person and dominate person are different things. Charm person does not turn an enemy into an ally for the remainder of a fight. It's uses are a bit more nuanced. [/QUOTE]
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