Limitations of EoM? Or: THe MAgic Missile Question.

[bpkri]

Hello there. I am new to this forum (well not perfectly new, but absent quite a while) and I have just recently purchased elements of magic.

It's a nice addon, I think it captures the way magic should be way better than the fixed spells of the core system.

I probably don't know much about the details yet, but I get the feeling, there are (even low-level) spells, you cannot recreate EoM, am I right?

For example Magic Missile. As it deals damage, I guess, it would be Evoke (probably Force?), however it is neither targetted, nor does it allow for a save.
As EoM doesn't provide a way to influence the Save all by itself, I guess, it's not possible to recreate this spell, or did I miss something?

Note: I am still trying to understand the system and am comparing spells created by EoM to spells in the core rules. I am not explicitly looking for ways to exploit the system (I will do that later), the question is just there to clarify for me, how the system works, what it can do and what not

 

[RangerWickett]

First of all, magic missile is one of the best-scaling spells in D&D, whereas EOM doesn't make your spells automatically scale. In D&D, a 10th level wizard does 5d6 more damage with a fireball than he did when he was 5th level. In EOM, that mage would have to spend 5 more MP, changing the spell to something more like a 5th level spell.

Bearing that in mind, you're totally free to come up with spells that don't match the options listed in the book. The costs are there to cover most situations, but if you want something special, just figure out with the GM what would be an appropriate MP cost. For a d4+1 magic missile, no save, range medium, I'd suggest it'd be a 3-MP spell. For the high-level version that has 5 missiles, it would be a 9-MP spell (4 more dice of damage is +4, splitting targets is +1, and I'd add an arbitrary extra +1 because there's still no save, and it's a lot of damage).

Compare it to another 9-MP attack spell, at medium range, with a single target. That would deal 8d6 damage, and allow a save or require an attack roll. Is 8d6 save for half better than 5d4+5 no save? It depends.

But yeah, when the listed options don't cover what you want, you can still create spells the traditional D&D way, by eyeballing what level you think they ought to be.

 

[bpkri]

Thanks a lot. Then I see things "right" - and I won't have much problems fiddling with the system. Should be quite interesting, what one can achieve.

 

[DonTadow]

I have a player attempting to mimic and add on to a ray of enfeeblement spell. Is it safe to say, that you suggest a +1 for no save?

Here is the spell

Feast of Am'mit
Attack (Death)
Spell Points: 15 (tentatively)
Components: V, S, Special
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action (Signature Spell)
Range: Touch
Effect: Touch Attack deals damage to the life force of a living target, possibly killing them and raising them as an undead servant.
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None [Possibly Fortitude for Half effect]
Spell Resistance: Yes
Upon a successful touch attack, a red mist issues out of the caster's mouth and into the target's, exiting a second later through the entire skin of their body. Significant internal damage is done, dealing 1d6 Temporary Constitution damage +1 per level (Maximum +10 [possibly 15 or more]). Should this reduce a humanoid or monstrous humanoid victim to 0 or less Constitution, they are killed, and will rise again in 1d4 rounds as an Allip [possibly Shadow] under the control of the caster, their heart having been consumed by Am'mit the Devourer. Constitution lost in this fashion, should the victim survive, is regained at a rate of 1 point lost per hour. Only the caster themselves may make this touch attack. Familiars, spectral hands and other such impliments cannot maintain the close connection to Am'mit needed to transfer the spell's energies.
Special Component: Before the spell is cast, 1d4 Temporary Constitution damage is done to the caster in connecting to the spirit of the Devourer, a loss which cannot be negated or limited. This loss returns at the same rate as above and is automatic, even if the spell fails or the touch attack misses.

(My assumption for Spell Points is as follows: Positives-12 Points for Damage (roughly equivalent to 3d6), 4 Points for no save, 4 Points for potential creation of obedient CR 3 creature of specific type from a limited selection of creatures under specific conditions; Negatives- -1 for Touch by Caster only, -4 for large constitution damage on each casting. Total: 15 points.)

 

[BSF]

OK, it looks like you are houserulling the EOM rules a bit, but that's cool!

A few thoughts: 1d6+10 is an average of 13.5 Con damage. Thus it is closer to 4d6 damage for 15 SP (Convert 4d6 damage in Evoke death to 1d6 ability damage - 15 sp would provide 16 dice of damage).

Summoning a CR 3 creature is 3 SP. But that only gives you limited time for control. A Transform to a CR 3 creatures is 6 SP. Is this intended as a permanent control of the created undead? Since it isn't an assured conversion, maybe a 4 SP cost.

I'm not sure I would allow a cost reduction for a touch only spell. I see it mostly as flavor text, but there are probably enough tweaks in the system to allow touch spells to be delivered in a different manner that it makes sense.

I definitely wouldn't reduce the cost by 4 SP for the con damage on the caster. 1d4 is an average of 2.5. For a -4 I would insist on a 1d6 con damage and make the spellcaster suck it up. For 1d4 I would give a -2 or maybe -3 SP reduction.

Best case scenario, I stat that out as 15 Sp. Which is 7-8th level in spell levels.

Pretty high level spell, but then again it does much more than even Enervation. Death through enervation doesn't turn you into a compliant tool for your enemy. There are interesting implications when you turn somebody into an undead creature and then sequester them away safely. They can't be brought back to life as easily.

Looks like a cool spell with nifty flavor.

 

[DonTadow]

OK, it looks like you are houserulling the EOM rules a bit, but that's cool!

A few thoughts: 1d6+10 is an average of 13.5 Con damage. Thus it is closer to 4d6 damage for 15 SP (Convert 4d6 damage in Evoke death to 1d6 ability damage - 15 sp would provide 16 dice of damage).

Summoning a CR 3 creature is 3 SP. But that only gives you limited time for control. A Transform to a CR 3 creatures is 6 SP. Is this intended as a permanent control of the created undead? Since it isn't an assured conversion, maybe a 4 SP cost.

I'm not sure I would allow a cost reduction for a touch only spell. I see it mostly as flavor text, but there are probably enough tweaks in the system to allow touch spells to be delivered in a different manner that it makes sense.

I definitely wouldn't reduce the cost by 4 SP for the con damage on the caster. 1d4 is an average of 2.5. For a -4 I would insist on a 1d6 con damage and make the spellcaster suck it up. For 1d4 I would give a -2 or maybe -3 SP reduction.

Best case scenario, I stat that out as 15 Sp. Which is 7-8th level in spell levels.

Pretty high level spell, but then again it does much more than even Enervation. Death through enervation doesn't turn you into a compliant tool for your enemy. There are interesting implications when you turn somebody into an undead creature and then sequester them away safely. They can't be brought back to life as easily.

Looks like a cool spell with nifty flavor.

oh no this is not my spell. This is actually the players. I am checking it to make sure the cost is right. This player tends to be a bit of a powergamer and i have to tripple check.

With this and my edits the spell comes to about 23. (double the summon cost to make it obedient). I took out the constitution damage to the caster and stuck with the eom:ME overcast rules of 1d4 strength for every 2 points over.

I also agree on the con damage. I didn't realize he added his level to it, so I nixed that as well. NOw it just deals 3d4. I swear, with most players the eom can be so much fun but with some i got to turn into a police.