Limited Wish and Metamagic Feats

[ARandomGod]

Oh... I just realized... we always assumed, because of Miracle, you know...

Yup, I could tell right away it was Miracle that was doing that to you.

On the other hand, that's fertile grounds for house rules... either nerf miracle by making it always take XP, or boost the wishes by allowing it to mimic without cost like miracle does. THAT would make the spell nice.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Personally I would allow a limited wish to duplicate metamagiced spells within the spell cap, regardless of whether the wizard has the metamagic feat or not.

On the one hand, some might argue "but he'd always cast maximised fireball rather than fireball or extended death ward rather than death ward". I say so what - it costs him 300xp so I'm prepared to be open minded about it.

Cheers

 

[Thanee]

Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects

A metamagicked spell with a modified level within the level limits listed in the Limited Wish description certainly falls into this category (even if you do not possess the feat).

I allow it with no restrictions, it does cost 300 XP after all.

Besides, the spell would be completely broken, if it could duplicate spells without spending XP (kinda like Miracle if you allow the cleric to freely choose the effect (I don't, I let the deity choose the specifics)... just worse, since it is only 7th level).

It's still the best spell of its level, even with the XP cost.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Fieari]

Dangit Thanee, I was just about to say that and you go ahead and do it first.

Yeah. By the RAW, if you're duplicating a spell, it says nothing about putting metamagic on said spell. If you metamagic the LW, the effects are metamagic'd. Just as Hypersmurf said.

BUT! That's not all LW can do. An empowered ray of enfeeblement produces an effect that is of a power level less than, say, a 6th level sorcerer spell. Far less, in fact. As such, LW can produce this effect, even if you don't possess the empowered feat.

 

[Jdvn1]

BUT! That's not all LW can do. An empowered ray of enfeeblement produces an effect that is of a power level less than, say, a 6th level sorcerer spell. Far less, in fact. As such, LW can produce this effect, even if you don't possess the empowered feat.

It also can't be counterspelled with a Ray of Enfeeblement. I don't think.

 

[Jack Simth]

My take:
LW, all by itself, could make a metamagiced spell up to 6th level with no problems - within the "standard" limitations, of course - so you could use LW to make a Maximized Fireball (regardless of whether or not you know the Maximize feat), or a Quickened Fireball (again, with or without knoweledge of Quicken), using 300 xp and the standard level-7 slot of LW, but not a quickened Maximized Fireball, as that would be a 9th level spell effect (Heighten from inside a LW has no effect, as any spell cast with LW is already a level-7 spell for purposes of such things as saves).

However, I would also permit putting feats that the caster knows on LW from outside, and have them bleed into the spell LW is emulating - thus, you could Heighten LW up to 9th (and thus use a 9th spell slot...), and then use it to cast a Maximized Fireball, to get a Maximized Fireball with save DC's based on a 9th, or use Silent and Still to run that Maximized Fireball without verbal or Somatic components; however, you couldn't maximize LW (10th level spell slot... well, you could at epic levels... maybe) so you couldn't use LW to make a Maximized Chain Lightning in this manner.

As for removing the EXP cost when duplicating a spell..... what would that do to the limitations of Sorcerors? As-is, it's still a spell a Sorceror could want (can duplicate Permanency at no penalty other than the higher slot, all of the self-only spells that Permanency can anchor, and many of the other spells permanency can anchor). With the limit removed, a 14-th+ sorceror scarcely needs to worry about his spell list at 6th and below (Oh, you need Greater Heroism? I can do that! (Bluff roll....) Yep, right here! (casts LW)) 3-6 times a day. It would probably be too much of a flexibility boost for Sorcerors. With the XP cost, it's not so bad - the Sorceror will likely only use LW to dupe a spell when pressed, as it actually costs him something other than his relatively plentiful spell slots. Don't get me wrong - it's great for when players don't have munchkin tendancies, but for any that do....

 

[Thanee]

As for removing the EXP cost when duplicating a spell..... what would that do to the limitations of Sorcerors? As-is, it's still a spell a Sorceror could want...

"Could want" ?

Bye
Thanee

 

[thorian]

My take:
LW, all by itself, could make a metamagiced spell up to 6th level with no problems - within the "standard" limitations, of course - so you could use LW to make a Maximized Fireball (regardless of whether or not you know the Maximize feat), or a Quickened Fireball (again, with or without knoweledge of Quicken)....

With LW having a casting time of 1 standard action, a quickened fireball wouldn't really work, plus it takes a 7th level slot, which LW can't duplicate.

As for allowing LW to duplicate a metamagiced spell, it is not fair to say duplicating a maximized fireball is the same as duplicating some other 6th level spell. After all, the maximized fireball represents investment in a feat in addition to the ability to cast the spell. So in essence, you are interpreting "produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the other effects" a little graciously. Would you let your wizard invent a spell with an effect equal to a maximized fireball as a 6th level spell?

 

[Thanee]

Well, you could allow only metamagic feats the caster possesses to alleviate that.

Or you could (which seems quite appropriate now that I think of it) adjudicate the spell's effective level as if it were one from a class spell list the caster cannot cast, if the metamagic feat is one the caster does not have. I.e. can only produce such effects up to 5th level then (or 4th if school is prohibited as well).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Zaebos]

I am curious...

Since you must prepare a spell to metamagic it (or suffer a longer casting time), and you haven't prepared the spell you are using with your limited wish, how does this equate?

I can see it if you use one of the sudden feats.

I would rule that if you want to metamagic your spell from a limited wish, it would take an extra standard action (for spell with a casting time of 1 action), or an extra full round action (for spells with longer casting times) after the round you you cast limited wish. Since this spell wasn't prepared in advance, I would rely on the rules to help with the question (PH 88 Metamagic Feats section Sorcerers and Bards).

Also, I would rule that if you couldn't metamagic it (due to level requirements) in the first place, then you can't metamagic at all.

Thats just what I would do.