Limiting Magic

[Obergnom]

Okay,

some more infos: E6 is not what my group would like to play. THe generally like PrCls and all that stuff, it is just the casters who become a bit to complicated. Everything else is fine.

I was primarly looking for problems capping the highest spell level might provide and which might be the optimal level to do so.

But maybe removing cwertain spell effect from the game might be all that is needed. The question is: Which spells to remove to preserve the feeling of 10th level gaming? (Which is what we currently play and everyone is fine with that... but it allready feels as "high level" as we want to go. The "digital" gamin that comes afterwards is not for us. (Win the initiative, win the battle)

 

[Maldor]

don't get rid of teleport alot of DM's think that it's a bad spell becuase it lets the group run away but thats a much better outcome then a TPK also some get it in there head that at mid levels (8-12) PC's should still enjoy walking two weeks to get to the next town and be hasseled by orc bandits every other night. you ever play a videogame was the world map travel thrilling to you? at low levels its fine even fun but by the time you are mid you look like the badasses you are and bandits should leave you alone.

P.S. that came out a little ranty guess i'm still a little bitter about some of the dumb houserule my DM tired.

 

[Obergnom]

Teleport is in, anyway. (It is a 5th level spell, and as I said, we are pretty happy with 10th level gaming)

Teleport without Error + Scry is what I'm not so sure about.

 

[White Whale]

don't get rid of teleport alot of DM's think that it's a bad spell becuase it lets the group run away but thats a much better outcome then a TPK also some get it in there head that at mid levels (8-12) PC's should still enjoy walking two weeks to get to the next town and be hasseled by orc bandits every other night. you ever play a videogame was the world map travel thrilling to you? at low levels its fine even fun but by the time you are mid you look like the badasses you are and bandits should leave you alone.

P.S. that came out a little ranty guess i'm still a little bitter about some of the dumb houserule my DM tired.

I am a big fan of banning Teleport and its likes, and I feel your counterarguments are quite moot:
-prevent TPK: So can several other spells (Wall of Force comes to mind), without introducing the highly anti-climatic Teleport (one moment deep inside a dungeon next to a huge a axe-wielding skeleton, then the next moment in your cosy hut)
-travel time and 'orc bandits every other night': when you are level 10+ orcs are no longer a threat. Unless your DM specifically wants you to interact with something he should just say "you travel for two weeks through wind, rain and snow. Occasionally you are attacked by a band of orcs, but you easily fence them off."

Additionally, Teleport introduces a so big change from the real world that I have trouble foreseeing the consequences; What is warfare like with the existence of Teleport? What about trading caravans, are they now non-existent? How do you deal with BBEGs that are able to jump around and unleash mayhem wherever they go, just to vanish into thin air the next second?

Instead of trying to find answer to these questions I find it easier and more enjoyable to just ban Teleport. In doing so it is also much more easy to introduce time as an important asset in strategic choices.


Anyway, back on topic:
If it is ok with your group I suggest just banning spells above 5th level (if you don't want more powerful magic anyway), or maybe introducing the metamagic rule you outlined in the first post (then you should probably give free metamagic feats at every other level of so).

 

[Old Drew Id]

Consider allowing specialist wizards to continue up to 9th level spells in their chosen school. Makes specializing more interesting, and means that the group might have to seek out a high-level specialist to get certain spells cast.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

First, I'd introduce a "hard cap". I'm going to be playing a game similar to E6, only I'm using 8th level as the cap, instead of 6th. That should cover you to to "10th level play" in terms of feel.

The specific setting I'm using actually caps magic at 5th level. It says flat out, [paraphrased] "Spells from other d20 sources are certainly possible to use, but spells over 5th level, anti-magic, and planar travel, are all inappropriate for the setting."

Which means for example that Teleportation is in.

5th level seems to be the "change" point in terms of spells. Up to 4th level it's not bad, but 5th level is where you can start getting into sticky stuff and it spirals out from there. So either cap it at 4th or 5th level, and then if you really need to, allow explicit and specific spells only after that.

So for example, if you _must_ have Ressurection in your game, go ahead and cap magic at 4th level, and then make an explicit allowance only for the Ressurection spell to exist. It'll still be at whatever particular level, and be a pretty special thing. There's a few way of handling the spell cost for the "exception" spells like that. The E6 way of incantations is one of them, and probably more acceptable to some folks since it's using "offical" magic rules.

As for the "OMG Teleportation is going to ruin everything!!!" post above... ummm... take a deep breath and relax. Somehow, D&D has managed to have Teleportation around for some 20+ years, and the game seems to have managed to survive it.

Fly, Create Food and Water.... there's all sorts of spells that "could" cause all sorts of problems because of... whatever. I don't see people complaining about how here in the modern times, any modern game is broken because there's satellites that can see what a person is holding in their hand, we're capable of genetically modifying foods, the U.S. has some of the best farming around and could "feed the world" (or a goodly portion of people going hungry now), how the ease of purchasing firearms in the U.S. means that basically everyone is going to be walking around the streets with a handgun hidden on them, the existence of .50 Cal sniper rifles, tanks, aircraft, bombs and machine guns means that conventional troops would cease to be on the battlefield, and on and on.

Just as there's a lot of considerations about why things work (or don't work) the way they do in "real life" when you play a modern game, it's not really a stretch to say there's reasons why you can't simply take and "twist the dial to 11" and have some sort of massive funkiness happen. I mean sure you can if you want to, but it's not an "automatic" kind of thing. Heck, I don't see people complaining about how the existence of clerics means there shouldn't be any undead or diseases, or that people's ability to detect alignment means that over time, either only good or only evil would be around.

If you don't like the Teleport+Scry thing... just don't allow it. Just like there's tricks to deal with all the various forms of observation that are possible in today's world, there'd be tricks to dealing with stuff like that. They might be expensive, unknown to many people, and so forth, but for those that need to hide what they do, or restrict access to where they are, or even simply _know_ if they're under observation or not, but there would be ways.

Don't get hung up on trying to force absolutely everything through the "this is the way the world looks" filter of the rulebook.

As for the casters sucking compared to other classes.... *shrug* that's a lot more of a personal thing. If you're really worried about it, I'd let 'em continue getting additional slots even though you've capped the level of the magic spells themselves. Higher level slots can be traded in for various metamagic effects, instead of casters having to waste feats buying metamagic feats. Or let the higher levels slots be "freebies". So the first 6th level slot a caster gets, they can use it to cast _any_ spell they happen to know. It steps on the toes of the Sorcerer a bit I suppose, but I think the Sorcerer probably has enough other stuff going on to not be that worried about it. Plus the fact that it's _only_ the higher level spell slots that can be used as freebies.

Let people know what you decide to do, and how it works out for you. Hopefully something I rambled about above is useful.

 

[Ry]

As Scurvy is saying about "this is the way the world looks"

Here's an example: A lich is not a lich because it's a 13th+ spellcaster with the lich template. A lich is a lich when it's a terribly dangerous spellcaster who has become so corrupted that they would rather tear off their own flesh than forego an extra measure of power and more time to use it. The same argument works for prestige classes.

 

[White Whale]

As for the "OMG Teleportation is going to ruin everything!!!" post above... ummm... take a deep breath and relax. Somehow, D&D has managed to have Teleportation around for some 20+ years, and the game seems to have managed to survive it.

Yes, the game has survived, but it has largely ignored the consequences of teleportation spells, imo. By ignored I mean, no one uses Teleport but the players.

Fly, Create Food and Water.... there's all sorts of spells that "could" cause all sorts of problems because of... whatever. I don't see people complaining about how here in the modern times, any modern game is broken because there's satellites that can see what a person is holding in their hand, we're capable of genetically modifying foods, the U.S. has some of the best farming around and could "feed the world" (or a goodly portion of people going hungry now), how the ease of purchasing firearms in the U.S. means that basically everyone is going to be walking around the streets with a handgun hidden on them, the existence of .50 Cal sniper rifles, tanks, aircraft, bombs and machine guns means that conventional troops would cease to be on the battlefield, and on and on.

But...
... satellites has changed how intelligence is gathered.
... genetically modified food has had an impact on the food industry.
... the ease of buing firearms in the US means that many carries handguns (more so than in places where firearms are harder to get)
... the existence of new weapons has changed the battlefield drastically.

The point is, these things have an impact in our world, whereas the impact of teleport in D&D is largely neglected. When it comes to the other spells you mention, yes, they would have an impact too. My solution is to drastically limit the number of spellcasters in the world.

 

[Arkhandus]

So what? Teleport isn't that uber, and it's still something that only high-level wizards have access to. The higher-level versions won't be around, and teleportation is a classic wizardly trick. Teleport can still dump you somewhere you didn't mean to go, anyway.

I'd still suggest that the OP limit spells to 6th-level to preserve the feel they want; or maybe limit it to 5th for most classes, but 4th for Bards, and 6th for specialist wizards (but only 6th-level spells from their specialty). Bards get access to some planar travel spells and whatnot as 5th or 6th level spells that would otherwise be 7th or 8th level for wizards.

As long as specialist wizards can get access to Stone to Flesh, Greater Dispelling, and such, it shouldn't be problematic using monsters pretty much as-is (since they could at least make scrolls of those spells, and magic items like Stone Salve).

 

[Arkhandus]

The point is, these things have an impact in our world, whereas the impact of teleport in D&D is largely neglected. When it comes to the other spells you mention, yes, they would have an impact too. My solution is to drastically limit the number of spellcasters in the world.

Uh, y'know the DMG already has guidelines for that, right?

A metropolis, like Rome or somesuch, would typically have 4 wizards of 13th-16th level, 4 sorcerers of the same level range, 4 clerics of 13th-18th level, and 4 druids of 13th-18th level. Along with 8 members of each of those classes ranging from 6th-8th level (9th max for the priest types). And several times more of much lower level.

Metropolises aren't likely to be found in every kingdom or region, however. Most cities will have only 2 individuals of each major spellcasting class ranging from 7th-10th level or 7th-12th level, and 4 individuals of 3rd-6th level in each of those classes, and maybe a dozen of lower level. Towns and villages would only tend to have a 1st-4th level spellcaster of each class, maybe a 7th-level one in the bigger towns. If they have any spellcasters at all.


So in the biggest cities of the world, which are likely to be countable on one hand or two maybe, you could expect to have 8 folks capable of 5th-level arcane spells (like Teleport, but it's less likely that the 4 highest sorcerers in town all know that spell), and another 8 folks capable of 5th-level divine spells (like Raise Dead, but that's only for the 4 highest clerics, not the 4 highest druids in town).

If one of those metropolises went to war with another, they might be able to teleport a few assassins into each other's territory each day, with some margin of error, and may be able to use limited high-level-spellcasting tactics in their war. But they'd be able to get their leaders Raised from the dead anyway, probably, so the clash of armies would still be an important deciding factor in their war, and the few major spellcasters on each side would be kept busy with just trying to counteract the biggest spells the other side's major spellcasters were using for espionage, infiltration, and destruction.

Whereas a moderately larger number of cities would be lucky to have access to a single spellcaster who knows Teleport and has 1-3 spell slots for it each day, or a single cleric who knows Raise Dead, or a single druid who knows Reincarnate.

And that stuff's only if using the DMG's guideline for communities, since it's only there as an optional guideline to begin with.