Lions vs. 10th level party..results of low magic encounter

Emirikol

Adventurer
Just had an encounter of a party of 5 (APL 9.2) vs. 12 lions (CR3). 2 PC's died.

How did this happen? Check out their equipment becasue they were 'undercover' in an arena in an Age of Worms game:
Barbarian: bronze breastplate, morningstar
Warlock: staff
Ninja/spellthief: scimitar
Rog/Swashbuckler: buckler, st.leather, scimitar, kukri
Rog: leather, longbow, gladius

The Barbarian and the swashbuckler died.

Thoughts?

jh
 

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Being outnumbered is a large disadvantage, particularly when you lack area damage or battlefield control magic.

Lions get pounce, right? So battlefield control is pretty important -- you don't want them to be able to charge all at once.

-- N
 

Emirikol said:
Just had an encounter of a party of 5 (APL 9.2) vs. 12 lions (CR3). 2 PC's died.

How did this happen? Check out their equipment becasue they were 'undercover' in an arena in an Age of Worms game:
Barbarian: bronze breastplate, morningstar
Warlock: staff
Ninja/spellthief: scimitar
Rog/Swashbuckler: buckler, st.leather, scimitar, kukri
Rog: leather, longbow, gladius

The Barbarian and the swashbuckler died.

Thoughts?

jh

How far away were the two groups before the encounter started?
Were any of the characters able to fly?
Was there any terrain to allow the characters to limit the number of lions that could attack them at any one time?
Did the characters have decent options for in-combat healing?
Did the characters know what they were going to face and have the opportunity to prep for it?

Keep in mind the EL is not just a matter of the CR of the opponents - it needs to include other elements such as: surprise, encounter distance, terrain features that favor one group over another, preparation, and so on. I can only guess based on the limited info you've given us that the encounter played to the lion's strengths and minimized their vulnerabilities.
 

CR 3, +1 for every 2 additional lions = EL 8
Party - typical gear.. guestimate -2 APL = APL 7
Terrain favorable to lions surprise and tactics, +2 EL = EL 10

End result, +3 CR encounter in which its expected that one to two characters would come near death.

Add in random dice rolls = the results you mention...

This is, of course, a very generic and uninformed look at the scenario. As Andre mentioned there are many other factors involved in calculating this stuff.

As an aside, I ran a Ravenloft I game in which I killed off a 9th level Barbarian in an encounter with plain, normal wolves... well, perhaps not completely plain/normal, the wolf tactics were influenced by Strahd and the party had limited night vision. The wolves ran through the lit clearing slashing quickly and fading into the darkness. Anyway..

Tactics and terrain have alot to do with how challenging an encounter can be.

Not sure if you are looking for validation as the DM running the game, or vindication as a player. IMO this boils down to a slight miscalculation by the DM compounded by favorable dice restults {or unfavorable if you prefer}
 

How many crits did you roll? I had a game where a first-level orc barbarian scored a crit against an under-equipped 13th level wizard and did around 45 damage. The wizard lived, the orc didn't. Strange stuff can happen, especially with crits.
 

The party you mention seem very reliant on their magical gear. Throw in a cleric/druid/wizard with some usable buff spells and it probably would have made a big difference?
 

The party had no reach weapons - spears - other than one longbow, and no healing. Every character should have had a spear. The point (hehe) of reach weapons is to kill opponnents before they reach you.

On the CR calculation Primitive Screwhead has it about right.
 

More thoughts: that's NOT just low magic. That's low equipment.

A low-magic party hunting lions would have:
- Hunting Dogs (for scent if not to fight)
- Horses
- Spears (lances)
- Bows & Arrows
- Fire
- perhaps Nets

A low-magic party who lacked horses would still have:
- Longspears or other reach weapons (readied vs. lion's charge)
- Shields (perhaps Tower Shields -- what were those man-sized shields the Zulu's used?)
- Dogs (scent)
- Missile weapons, perhaps with poison

Those who experience lions frequently would have:
- Traps in place (extremely favorable terrain)



So... I'd say it's not magic that was low, it was preparedness. The party didn't have a cohesive plan, either, did they?

Cheers, -- N
 

That's about the size of it, yes. There's a reason for the Wealth By Level guidelines, and this is half of it. At 9th, they're supposed to have about 36k in useful equipment each. That's, oh, a +2 armor and weapon for the Barbarian, as well as +2 Gauntlets of Strength, a +2 Vest of Natural Armor, and maybe a +2 Peripat of Health, a +2 Cloak of Resistance, and some potions. That's 4 points of AC, three points of attack, three or four points of damage, and 9 HP, plus the possibility of Flying, being invisible, or self-healing in combat.

That said, a Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid, or Favored Soul (Wizard works, but is harder to keep under cover, due to the spellbook requirement, unless secrecy of abilities isn't needed) with some decent buff and combat control spells could have very easily turned that encounter around. Magic Vestments gives everyone with clothes and/or armor +2 AC, Cloths and a Shield +4 (Mage Armor gives +4 Armor to those without any yet). A little Shield of Faith spam just before the encounter (it was an Arena bout - it's not like they didn't have warning) grants the entire party +3 Deflection. +5 to +7 AC to every party member - suddenly, those Lions can't hit worth much. Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, and Cat's Grace do wonder's for HP, attack, and AC (respectively, for the most part). If secrecy isn't important, Web, Wall of Stone/Ice/Iron/Force (as appropriet to the area) can be used to prevent Pounce from coming into play.

Edit: With five people in the party, you could have had four Tower Shields, a corner to fight from, and one guy with a bow. Tower Shield guys use the Total Cover option, which makes it so the lions can't attack them. They still block travel, so the guy with the bow can stand behind them, shooting the helpless lions to death.
 
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Just ran the encounter through ye olde Encounter Calculator v3.5 and its description of the encounter was - "challenging, keep on your toes"

so not easy for a well equipped standard party, throw in a few disadvantages such as poor equip, flat terrain, no healing and limited spells then a couple of PC's biting the dust shouldn't be that much of a surprise....
 

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