CRGreathouse
Community Supporter
Jack Simth said:
Of course lions have Jump +9 (+5 Str, +4 speed), so they can probably just leap up (even if you don't give them the full 8' vertical reach for a Large quadruped).
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Lions vs. 10th level party..results of low magic encounter
- Thread starter Emirikol
- Start date
Of course lions have Jump +9 (+5 Str, +4 speed), so they can probably just leap up (even if you don't give them the full 8' vertical reach for a Large quadruped).
As JackSimth points out, 36k of magic items is a lot and the loss of AC bonuses is particularly pronounced. For example, for the Barbarian:
+1 Flaming Greatsword (really, who fights with a morningstar?) (8k)
+2 Breastplate (5k)
+1 Deflection (2k)
+1 Natural Armor (2k)
+2 Resistance (4k)
+2 Con (4k)
+2 Str (4k)
+2 Dex (4k)
= 33k (3k left over for other items)
This gives:
+5 AC, +9 HP, +3 Fort/+3Ref/+2 Will, +2 attack, +5.5 dmg per hit,
Say that the Barb’s feats are Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, and Weapon Focus. Barb is likely to have the following stats, in rage, with magic: Ability scores 24 Str (16 base + 4 rage +2 levels + 2 magic), 16 Dex (14 base + 2 magic), 16 Con (14 base + 2 magic).
HP: 112, AC 20 (+7 armor, +3 Dex, +1 Nat Armor, +1 Deflection -2 rage), Attack bonus +18/+13 (+9 base, +1 magic, +7 Strength, +1 Focus), Damage 2d6 + 10 Str + 1 magic + 1d6 Fire= 3d6 + 11.
If he has Power Attack/Cleave/Great Cleave, he can Power Attack for close to full and he’ll be very likely to kill a lion in one hit. Meanwhile, the Lions only hit him with primary attacks 40% of the time and they do pitiful damage. If all 12 Lions could Pounce on him at once (clearly not possible), he’d be in trouble. As it is, if he wins initiative he can probably charge a group of Lions and kill most of them. When the lions get to go only a handful of lions can attack him at once, and then he can Great Cleave them. This is just one character (admittedly one pretty well suited to fighting groups of low AC enemies).
Now think about what happens when his attack bonus is 2 points lower, his damage bonus is 5.5 points lower- all of a sudden he has to land two hits (with a little bit of power-attack) to kill a given lion. So there won’t be any Great-Cleave rounds where he kills four lions unless he rolls multiple criticals. His AC is now 15, which means that the Lions hit him 65% of the time, and so he’s taking over one and a half times the amount of damage he did before.
All this should indicate the extent to which character power at higher levels depends on magic items. Spellcasters can get away with fewer magic items because if relatively long-lasting buff spells exist, they can convert excess spells for the day into more useful things like AC, saves, and ability scores. Barbarians have no such option.
+1 Flaming Greatsword (really, who fights with a morningstar?) (8k)
+2 Breastplate (5k)
+1 Deflection (2k)
+1 Natural Armor (2k)
+2 Resistance (4k)
+2 Con (4k)
+2 Str (4k)
+2 Dex (4k)
= 33k (3k left over for other items)
This gives:
+5 AC, +9 HP, +3 Fort/+3Ref/+2 Will, +2 attack, +5.5 dmg per hit,
Say that the Barb’s feats are Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, and Weapon Focus. Barb is likely to have the following stats, in rage, with magic: Ability scores 24 Str (16 base + 4 rage +2 levels + 2 magic), 16 Dex (14 base + 2 magic), 16 Con (14 base + 2 magic).
HP: 112, AC 20 (+7 armor, +3 Dex, +1 Nat Armor, +1 Deflection -2 rage), Attack bonus +18/+13 (+9 base, +1 magic, +7 Strength, +1 Focus), Damage 2d6 + 10 Str + 1 magic + 1d6 Fire= 3d6 + 11.
If he has Power Attack/Cleave/Great Cleave, he can Power Attack for close to full and he’ll be very likely to kill a lion in one hit. Meanwhile, the Lions only hit him with primary attacks 40% of the time and they do pitiful damage. If all 12 Lions could Pounce on him at once (clearly not possible), he’d be in trouble. As it is, if he wins initiative he can probably charge a group of Lions and kill most of them. When the lions get to go only a handful of lions can attack him at once, and then he can Great Cleave them. This is just one character (admittedly one pretty well suited to fighting groups of low AC enemies).
Now think about what happens when his attack bonus is 2 points lower, his damage bonus is 5.5 points lower- all of a sudden he has to land two hits (with a little bit of power-attack) to kill a given lion. So there won’t be any Great-Cleave rounds where he kills four lions unless he rolls multiple criticals. His AC is now 15, which means that the Lions hit him 65% of the time, and so he’s taking over one and a half times the amount of damage he did before.
All this should indicate the extent to which character power at higher levels depends on magic items. Spellcasters can get away with fewer magic items because if relatively long-lasting buff spells exist, they can convert excess spells for the day into more useful things like AC, saves, and ability scores. Barbarians have no such option.
Emirikol
Adventurer
It was a simple battle. Two pillars they could attempt to climb (only the warlock made it up..saving him).
Are the EL-CR guidelines for LIONS really that affected by magic?
Yes, the PC's were low equipment too..because they were slaves and managed to briefly raid an armory before being thrown out into the arena floor.
jh
Are the EL-CR guidelines for LIONS really that affected by magic?
Yes, the PC's were low equipment too..because they were slaves and managed to briefly raid an armory before being thrown out into the arena floor.
jh
Emirikol said:
PC power is greatly affected by magic items and that's what counts the most. Personally, I don't think you're likely to be able to stay "undercover" for long after a performance like that. "Those 5 guys just killed 12 lions in a straight up brawl while having no weapons or armor to speak of, and most of them survived! One of them must be a cunning general and renowned warrior, played by Russell Crowe, who we previously thought was dead!"
Jack Simth
First Post
Yeah, they have exactly a 50/50 chance of clearing the five feet needed to jump over a "standard" humanoid.CRGreathouse said:Of course lions have Jump +9 (+5 Str, +4 speed), so they can probably just leap up (even if you don't give them the full 8' vertical reach for a Large quadruped).
Presuming, of course, that an Int-2 critter connects the twang of a bowstring (or, more likely in that party, the foosh of the Warlock's Eldritch Blast), and jump over the nearby meat in the way with the big chunks of wall, putting the lion in a situation where it's completely surrounded.
Oh, wait - even so, though, that would require them to end their turn in an already occupied square, which is illegal without grappling. Of course, even then, it can only start a grapple with one, but it needs four squares to occupy..... three of which are occupied already. Near as I can tell, it's RAW illegal for the lion.
YES.Emirikol said:
Put it this way; if you take a creature, add two to each of it's three most important stats, four to it's AC (in addition to any AC changes due to it's stat changes), two to it's saves (again, in addition to any save changes due to it's stat changes), and four to it's average damage, would that justify a CR increase?
If you reverse that from the expected party member (by way of not having expected equipment) does that justify a backing off of what CR they can handle?
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Nifft
Penguin Herder
In this case, though, it's not just a bunch of stat bonuses that's missing. It's a bunch of options that are missing.
- Cover
- Mobility
- Missile attacks
- Reach weapons
- Invisibility, flight, wall of fire, black tentacles, entangle ... at least one of these effects should be easily within reach of a 10th level party. One confusion spell would have turned the fight on its head.
Basically, they were greatly restricted in tactics as well as equipment. That's just about as bad as "unfavorable terrain" in my book.
Cheers, -- N
- Cover
- Mobility
- Missile attacks
- Reach weapons
- Invisibility, flight, wall of fire, black tentacles, entangle ... at least one of these effects should be easily within reach of a 10th level party. One confusion spell would have turned the fight on its head.
Basically, they were greatly restricted in tactics as well as equipment. That's just about as bad as "unfavorable terrain" in my book.
Cheers, -- N
the Jester
Legend
Emirikol said:
That's about an EL x encounter (3 and a half doublings in the number of enemies = +7 EL; add to that a poor tactical situation = +1 EL; and from the party's effective level, for being down to that level of equipment, I'd subtract about 3.
If your APL was 9.2 and you have five pcs (effectively +.5 to APL) I'd give you a net effective APL of 6.7.
So the party's effective level of 6.7 vs. an EL 11 encounter... I'd say that worked out about right.
I've done some low-magic experimenting, and I think you have to be careful and judge encounters case by case. In my low-magic game, if I use a monster that needs magic to hurt it, I'll raise its CR by 1. Likewise, a monster with powerful spellcasting abilities will have a CR of 1 or more higher than normal in the low-magic setting. (An aranea might be +1 CR, while a couatl would be +2 and a high-level lich would be +3.)
Low magic, imho, is really really fun; but it fundamentally changes the way encounters work, and 'standard' expectations really aren't valid anymore. A big chasm can stymie high-level pcs.
If you thought that encounter went badly just wait until they encounter giants, dragons or any other large/huge monster with great strength and good melee capabilities.
They will get shredded to small pieces.
In low/scarce magic games the DM (which would be you) must be very careful about choosing opponents and battles. Many encounters will be hard or downright impossible without magic.
Like the abovementioned giants. Even in a normal games a standard encounter with giants will face the PC's with enemies who are inherently more dangerous in melee than themselves. Basically they can't win by duking it out, they must use magic to target the giants weak points (refl and will saves) or loose. If the PC's don't have the resources to do so, they will loose. Period.
If you look at lions they have fast movement, low AC, decent hp, decent attack bonus, good damage and good fort and refl but crappy will saves.
So in order to defeat 12 of them you need at least some of the following
a) Good AC
b) A ton of HP
c) The ability to a lot of damage with a decent attack bonus
d) Magic that targets will saves
e) A high damage reduction
f) The ability to fly and still attack
g) A speed of more than 40 ft. (to run away)
h) A way of dividing the lions and only facing one/few at a time
I don't know the exact stats of your campaigns characters, but I would guess that they only fulfill one or two of those conditions. And that turned out to be to little.
They will get shredded to small pieces.
In low/scarce magic games the DM (which would be you) must be very careful about choosing opponents and battles. Many encounters will be hard or downright impossible without magic.
Like the abovementioned giants. Even in a normal games a standard encounter with giants will face the PC's with enemies who are inherently more dangerous in melee than themselves. Basically they can't win by duking it out, they must use magic to target the giants weak points (refl and will saves) or loose. If the PC's don't have the resources to do so, they will loose. Period.
If you look at lions they have fast movement, low AC, decent hp, decent attack bonus, good damage and good fort and refl but crappy will saves.
So in order to defeat 12 of them you need at least some of the following
a) Good AC
b) A ton of HP
c) The ability to a lot of damage with a decent attack bonus
d) Magic that targets will saves
e) A high damage reduction
f) The ability to fly and still attack
g) A speed of more than 40 ft. (to run away)
h) A way of dividing the lions and only facing one/few at a time
I don't know the exact stats of your campaigns characters, but I would guess that they only fulfill one or two of those conditions. And that turned out to be to little.
Ditto that. I'm running a Grim Tales game (low-magic and no magical equipment at the time). Two 10th-level (with max hp and 40-point buy) PCs fought a bunch of troglodyte zombies, several ghasts, and a trio of dire wolves.
The zombies and ghasts were still harmless. The wolves were NASTY. They hit much more often than they would have in a D&D game, and the PCs couldn't get away from them or alter the battlefield to their advantage. Ugly, ugly fight. (Hypersmurf, if he reads this, can attest to this.)
In a low-magic, low-equipment game, anything you'd call a Brick in a Superhero game gets much much MUCH more powerful, relatively speaking... because what used to be the least-preferred way to deal with that monster largely turns into the ONLY way to deal with the monster.
The zombies and ghasts were still harmless. The wolves were NASTY. They hit much more often than they would have in a D&D game, and the PCs couldn't get away from them or alter the battlefield to their advantage. Ugly, ugly fight. (Hypersmurf, if he reads this, can attest to this.)
In a low-magic, low-equipment game, anything you'd call a Brick in a Superhero game gets much much MUCH more powerful, relatively speaking... because what used to be the least-preferred way to deal with that monster largely turns into the ONLY way to deal with the monster.
