Little Sneak PrC [LEW]...

[Jack Haggerty]

Question though: Can a player count it's levels in this PrC when determining if it can flank a creature with the Imporved Uncanny Dodge ability?

Found a more or less 'official' answer for this...

From the 3.0 FAQ:

My character just became a 5th-level sacred fist. this prestige class gives him the uncanny dodge ability (can't be flanked) and makes him a 14th-level character overall. Does that mean it would take an 8th-level rogue to flank and sneak attack him, or just a 9th-level rogue, since he has only 5 levels in the class that grants the ability? Suppose the attacking rogue is a multiclass character who gets sneak attack from her new class as well as her old one. Do you add the class levels from both classes to determine whether the sneak attack is more powerful than the uncanny dodge?

Add up all the attacker's class levels in classes that grant sneak attack. Then add up all the defender's class levels in classes that grant uncanny dodge. Then just compare the two normally.

Assuming that the example character has only one class that grants uncanny dodge, it would take a 9th-level rogue (or a character with a total of 9 levels in classes that grant sneak attack) to flank him.

In other words, yes, they would stack.

 

[Thels]

Yeap, that was along what I was thinking. Perhaps make a note about it somewhere.

Since 90% will probably choose Sneaky, why not save you the troubles and go with that one. Since they only need 1 feat, there's no reason to broaden their choices even more.

Halfling could work. Another option would be to require the character to be small, so it's limited to Halflings, Gnomes and Kobolds (who are currently not playable).

 

[Velmont]

I like the idea, but I find it a bit strong. I have one suggestion, slow down the progression of the sneak attack. I compare it to a rogue (which seems the closest Core class for this NPC class). What will you lose by taking 10 level of that PrC.

- 4 skill points per level
- 3 Rogue Special power
- Trap Sense +3

And you gain:

- Heightened Senses
- Perpetual Stealth
- Furtive Run
- Trackless
- Hide in Plain Sight
- Inconspicuous

These all are strong pwers, all equivalent or stronger to rogue special abilities, in my opinion. So, for balance, I think it is too strong. But there is not only balance. Halflings are not an evil kind, and when I look at this class, I see the perfect assassin. I would say it is almost better than the assassin class, as you can run in his back without being heard and do your sneak attack. So for both balance and concept, I would suggest to slow down the sneak progression. Give them 3 or 2 dices over all the levels, even if you finish to have some level where you gain no new power, it would be more concept and more balance.

For requirement:
Stealthy should be a must, but I think Alertness could be another good requirement, that would fit with Heigthened sense. They are not as strong as other feats, but they will still be usefull (it is not toughness after all) and it's reprensent a good cost for that PrC.

Here was my suggestion.

 

[Jack Haggerty]

Yeap, that was along what I was thinking. Perhaps make a note about it somewhere.

Since 90% will probably choose Sneaky, why not save you the troubles and go with that one. Since they only need 1 feat, there's no reason to broaden their choices even more.

Right... I just haven't gotten around to editing in the latest changes yet.

Halfling could work. Another option would be to require the character to be small, so it's limited to Halflings, Gnomes and Kobolds (who are currently not playable).

That's not a half bad idea... Let me think about that for minute.

I like the idea, but I find it a bit strong. I have one suggestion, slow down the progression of the sneak attack. I compare it to a rogue (which seems the closest Core class for this NPC class). What will you lose by taking 10 level of that PrC.

- 4 skill points per level
- 3 Rogue Special power
- Trap Sense +3

And you gain:

- Heightened Senses
- Perpetual Stealth
- Furtive Run
- Trackless
- Hide in Plain Sight
- Inconspicuous

Trouble is, you're comparing it to a core class. By the same respect, compare any arcane PrC with a full spellcaster level progression to the Sorcerer or even the Wizard. Compare the Sneak to another PrC, and it's not quite that bad. And losing 4 skill points a level for ten levels is a pretty big drawback in of itself, if you think about it.

But there is not only balance. Halflings are not an evil kind, and when I look at this class, I see the perfect assassin. I would say it is almost better than the assassin class, as you can run in his back without being heard and do your sneak attack.

I had been envisioning this PrC as more of a scout or spy class, than assassin. I didn't offer a flavor explaination like I did for the other abilities, but I envisioned the sneak attack progression as a last-ditch sort of thing. Sometimes stealth won't do you any good, sometimes no matter how sneaky you are you still get caught. In those situations you need to kill quickly and move on. That's where the sneak attack comes in.

Although... I do see where you are coming from. For this class, I'd rather have violence be a last resort.

So for both balance and concept, I would suggest to slow down the sneak progression. Give them 3 or 2 dices over all the levels, even if you finish to have some level where you gain no new power, it would be more concept and more balance.

This is a pretty good idea. And it might allow me to add in an ability that I wanted to include, but couldn't because there were already enough good ones. Let me think about how to do that...

For requirement:
Stealthy should be a must, but I think Alertness could be another good requirement, that would fit with Heigthened sense. They are not as strong as other feats, but they will still be usefull (it is not toughness after all) and it's reprensent a good cost for that PrC.

I'd actually thought of using Alterness. Unfortunately, the classes and races that will be using this PrC will have so few feats to go around already (only 3 feats before you begin the PrC, if you go the quickest route), that I didn't want to add a second feat requirement. I instead settled for ranks in Listen, Spot and Search, and left the feat to Stealthy, which is the primary focus of the PrC.

 

[Thels]

Sneak once per 2 levels seems fine to me though. For Velmont's comparison, you have one skill matching up to trapfinding +3 and two to 4 skills/level (so 2 skills/level per ability), which is not that bad of a payoff if you ask me.

However, you could move the Sneak Attack bonuses to lvls 2/4/6/8/10 and the special abilities to lvls 1/3/5/7/9/10. That way, the Sneak Attack doesn't become a main focus, and a Sneak couldn't get more Sneak Attack than a regular Rogue.

With the current requirements, someone could level up to Rogue 5 and then go for Sneak, which gives him Sneak Attack at level 5 and 6. Getting it at 5 and 7 wouldn't be bad.

Oh, and Velmont forgot Improved Uncanny Dodge progession, which you lose as a Sneak.

 

[Jack Haggerty]

However, you could move the Sneak Attack bonuses to lvls 2/4/6/8/10 and the special abilities to lvls 1/3/5/7/9/10. That way, the Sneak Attack doesn't become a main focus, and a Sneak couldn't get more Sneak Attack than a regular Rogue.

Hrm... That's another good idea.

The ability that I hadn't added in was going to be called, "Concealed Weapon", and would essentially give the Sneak Quick Draw with light weapons only. I didn't add it in, because it was the ability that fit in the least, and the character can always take Quick Draw as a feat.

So, my version with fewer Sneak Attacks would probably look like this:

1st - Perpetual Stealth
2nd - Heightened Senses
3rd - SA +1d6
4th - Furtive Run
5th - Concealed Weapon
6th - SA +2d6
7th - Trackless
8th - HiPS
9th - SA +3d6
10th - Inconspicuous

Or, swapping the Sneak Attacks with the other abilities would produce:

1st - Perpetual Stealth, Heightened Senses
2nd - SA +1d6
3rd - Furtive Run
4th - SA +2d6
5th - Trackless
6th - SA +3d6
7th - HiPS
8th - SA +4d6
9th - Inconspicuous
10th - SA +5d6

 

[Thels]

IMHO it's better to have one of the special abilities at 10th together with the 5th sneak, and have one special at every odd level.

Lvl 10 being a bit better than the other's ain't bad. Makes people go all the way to 10.

 

[Jack Haggerty]

First off, I want to say... Thanks for all the advice, guys. Even if I don't agree with you, it makes me think hard about why I picked a certain ability.

Anyway...

The trouble is, Thels, Perpetual Stealth is one of the weaker abilities that the class gets. All it means, is that even when the Sneak isn't actively using his hide/Move Silently skills, the base DC to Listen or Spot him is 10 + his skill modifiers. So even when he's walking down the street, eating his dinner or sitting on the privy, still being sneaky by force of habit. Its meant to be more of a stylistic ability, than one that will actually see much use.

So, I don't really have qualms about doubleing that one up with another ability. Doubling up any of the higher level abilities with Sneka Attack, would make level 10 quite powerful indeed. Unless there's another 'style' ability we could come up with for level 10 that really wouldn't affect gameplay...

Let me think on that...

Guh. You guys make me think too much.

 

[Velmont]

Ok, I may have understimated the 4 skill per level, and I have forgotten the Uncanny Dodge ability, which, as you don't have this ability in the Sneak PrC, the PrC level doesn't count when you compare to another rogue (small disadvantage, but still one).

So, my version with fewer Sneak Attacks would probably look like this:

1st - Perpetual Stealth
2nd - Heightened Senses
3rd - SA +1d6
4th - Furtive Run
5th - Concealed Weapon
6th - SA +2d6
7th - Trackless
8th - HiPS
9th - SA +3d6
10th - Inconspicuous

I think that would be great. It is stronger than the Rogue (I think, and anyway, PrC should be a bit better than Core, as you must pay for them with some feats and skills ponts), but more specialized, and the sneaking ability is something that can be always usefull, so it is good.

But one last thing, for Perpetual stealth, you should not give the ability to take 10 while running, or give it later. It is harder to sneak while running, and taking 10 is generally mean something is not hard. I would suggest to give it at level 6. Except that, it start to be a great PrC.

 

[Thels]

Requirements
To qualify to become a halfling sneak...

Class Skills
The halfling sneak’s ... Decipher Script (Int), ... Forgery (Int), ...

Perpetual Stealth (Ex): The arts of stealth are so ingrained in his way of life, that a little sneak constantly and consistantly moves stealthily without ever thinking about it. Little sneaks are considered to be Taking 10 on Hide and Move Silently checks at all times. He may choose to roll the skill checks normally if so desired.

2 spots where you still talk about halfling.

I'm not sure Decipher Script and Forgery really match the class.

In Perpetual Stealth you're using the plural form once, which leads to bad grammar. Perhaps stick to singular throughout that paragraph. Also, you might wanna mention the penalties for moving silently and hiding while running, or people might forget about them.