Little tidbit about the Planar Hanbook

[Felon]

Hmmmmm! Outsider PCs! This could be what prompts me to finally buying savage species, if I'll need the rules from that book. I meant to for a while, but the whole idea of "gain XP, grow two meters" holds me back. It's mechanically sound, but IMO it's conceptually stupid.

If that's all that held you back, then I'd say you restrained yourself needlessly. After all, it's not like ogres or trolls are two meters taller than a typical human.

Taking levels in a monster class doesn't cause a character to just suddently sprout six feet in one level; they slowly grow larger as they gain Str and Con bonuses, and once they've amassed about +8 in the former and +4 in the latter, they make the transition to becoming large (which seems to be about 9 feet). In fact, most monsters are about 10th level before they get a size increase, so it's not even a very rapid transition.

 

[Zappo]

The example about size is only the most obvious one; it's the concept of gaining racial features with experience that doesn't sit well. It may make sense for magical powers, but physical features should largely depend on time only. I can't see two ogre twins, one adventurer and another not, having a vastly different aspect because of a vastly different level. Age templates, on the other hand, make sense but may lead to substantial power differences within the party...

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Age templates, on the other hand, make sense but may lead to substantial power differences within the party...

Not if they're spread out over time and only provide +1 ECL each and they don't automatically bump up your Experience Points.

Example: Say I have an ECL +1 (1 Racial Hit Die) character that has reached 5th Level and has the Experience of a 5th Level PC. However, it's also his Birthhday, so he gains his 2nd Racial Hit Die, making him a 6th Level PC. However, he still only has the Experience Points of a 5th Level PC. In this way, he is only 1 Level above the rest of the group, but his advancement is delayed shortly as he aquires the Experience Points necessary to go from 5th to 6th and then to 7th. Meanwhile, the rest of the party gains 6th Level and move into 7th with him.

Not that dramatic of a difference, wouldn't you say?

 

[Zappo]

Understood. Pretty nifty, but it is effectively limited to races that age and gain their racial features relatively quickly (but not faster than the rest of the party gains levels). A dragon would probably be stuck to his current HD and abilities for the entire campaign. Which actually makes sense, but... well, honestly I just don't know what I want.

But I'll definitely get the planar handbook. What would the abbreviation for it be? PlHB?

 

[Vocenoctum]

Understood. Pretty nifty, but it is effectively limited to races that age and gain their racial features relatively quickly (but not faster than the rest of the party gains levels). A dragon would probably be stuck to his current HD and abilities for the entire campaign. Which actually makes sense, but... well, honestly I just don't know what I want.

But I'll definitely get the planar handbook. What would the abbreviation for it be? PlHB?

Actually, the Age Template sounds like the rules in Draconomicon.

Lets say you start as a wee little hatchling, maybe 1 year old. A Brass dragon. You're 4HD, +2 level adj, so ECL 6.
When you hit 2 years old, your next level has to be a dragon HD, when you hit 3, again with a dragon HD. When you hit 5, you take a "non level" to represent your level adjustment going up. So, at age 5 you're 6hd+3 la, so ecl 9. At age 6 you become a very young dragon and get another dragon HD.

Granted, it starts you as a ECL 6 PC, and doesn't have the progression for before that, but it's the same concept.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Zappo: This is true, but it also makes Young Adult Dragons that are Epic feasible (which, for some folks, is ideal!). It's also how I handle aquired templates (like lycanthropes), since the ECL boost puts infected PCs above the rest of the party.

Another key to making it work is to eliminate "hampered" maturity. For instance, it's been argued (to some degree of success) that Elves are an inferior species because it takes them over a century to reach the physical and mental maturity of a Human. I tend to agree with this assessment, and as such, longer lived races tend to reach physical maturity much earlier (Dwarves at 20 rather than 40+, for example).

Another issue (almost a tangent, but I'll bring it up here anyways and start another thread if the conversation pulls too far from the Planar Handbook) is that of high Hit Die racial conversions. For instance, in 1E and 2E (until the Complete Humanoids Handbook, at least), leveling non-PC races was, at best, a house rule. As such, some races were created at higher Hit Die just to ensure that they were as tough as myth made them. Firbolg, as an example, had 12 Hit Die. In 3E, they are converted (in MMII and at SG's Creature Catalogue) at 13 Hit Die. Question is: Is this really necessary in 3E/d20? After all, is having the Firbolg at 13 Hit Die better than having them at 4 Hit Die with 6-7 Class Levels? This lowers their ECL and makes them far more customizable prior to Epic Levels (which can't be a bad thing, eh?).

Vocenoctum: Y'know, every time WotC puts out a supplement, I sometimes wonder if they've got folks following me around... Gawds know how many times I got flamed on at a certain official site for suggesting something, and now half of those suggestions are in Unearthed Arcana. Heck, I remember suggesting handling Lycanthropes as a Prestige Class (Requirement: Infection) quite some time before Savage Species was even a consideration.

Paranoid? Perhaps... But definately frustrating and kinda ironic.

Of course, that's one of the reasons I'm less uptight about the anti-house rules crowd these days; knowing that at any time a house rule is only a supplement away from vindication does a lot to soothe one's nerves.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Basically, I don't like the idea of having to wait for the birthday to grow large.

You're already using a rule with monster classes that allows not all monsters to be as powerful as their common MM versions.....

I know it's not for everyone, but I explain growing taller, etc. the same way I explain gaining levels -- suddenly knowing how to cast 9th level spells would maybe be challenging for most to conceptualize, or remarkably power attacking just because you killed a few goblins. Growing a size category is a more drastic physical change, but it comes from the same mechanic in the game, and the same 'life energy' in XP. IMC, XP isn't just an invisible mechanic, it's an actual 'substance' that people have....adventurers, of course, have more......and many monsterous creatures seek it out to gain power (before giving birth to offspring, a monster needs XP to have it powerful at birth, or else the young monster will not be strong, and needs to hone it further with challenges and life-threatening dangers (adventures).

I mean, I know that wouldn't go over in a lot of campaigns, but IMHO, it's *vastly* preferable to "Just wait a week for my birthday, guys, I'll suddenly become a mighty beast in a week, and then we can go destroy the evil overlord."

 

[Shemeska]

I'm looking forward to the book for a few reasons, none of which I can say since it aint out yet. Suffice to say, I know a tiny bit about one of the sections that makes me look forward to it.

However, if there are indeed some SS type progressions of outsider exemplar races like Slaadi, Yugoloths, etc that'd be really freaking cool. More mention of Modrons would be cool too.

 

[thundershot]

Um... the size change thing with Savage Species is suppose to represent when the creature reaches that size. It's assumed that it gradually grows to that size, and it doesn't get the benefits of size until it pysically hits the right monster level...


Chris

 

[Olive]

Actually Olive, a significant portion of Savage Species was written with 3.5E in mind (no Beast type, Shapechanger as a subtype, altered skills, etc). So revision changes are minimal at most.

But a whole heap of the monsters changed, esp theones that people are talking about ehre (utsiders), so that's what I emant - it's simply not that useful in 3.5.

Your millage may vary...