Lizardfolk = ECL 4?!?!

[Wolfspider]

I believe that it is explicitly stated in the DMG that you don't get extra wealth, etc. for the levels you gave up to be a monster race, so if you're going by the rules (or at least by those rules) then the human fighter would have more stuff (of course, this was quickly houseruled in my group and should probably be in others, too).

I don't have my DMG here with me at work. Can you post a page number and maybe the whole passage here? I'd be curious to see what it says....

Thanks!

 

[Hypersmurf]

Can you post a page number and maybe the whole passage here? I'd be curious to see what it says....

p24.

A creature with no class levels has the standard gear for a creature of its kind. A creature with class levels has equipment worth an amount based on the total of those class levels (see Table 2-24 : Starting Equipment for PCs above 1st level).

-Hyp.

 

[Gez]

There was lots of discussion about this on the FR forums of the WotC boards. Unfortunately, they delete messages older than 30 days in all forums (except archives, of course ), so I can't give a link. Because I had the response of an official on that matter.

Basically, the reason they shaft some races is that they want to "not incite players to play monsters", which is logically equivalent to "incite players not to play monsters". They seems to consider a DM is too weak-willed to say he don't want a bulette barbarian in his group, so they give ECL +24 to the bulette, so no one will want to play one and the problem is solved. That's a bit caricatural, but that's it.

Now, some monsters are allowed (drows), but those who don't have an inherent coolness factor ("look, I'm a drizzt-look-alike") are heavily penalized.

The Hobgoblin is (now) ECL +1, by the way. Compare with the "x person"-spells-immune, energy resistant, free-spell-per-day-casting, planetouched, and tell me if that's worth as much as +4 to Move Silently.

Ain't it crap ? ECL are to be determined by the DM on a case-by-case basis, IMHO. And even if I know ECL and CR does not measure the same thing, I think that when the ECL is 4 or 5 times bigger than the CR, one of the two is wrong. Seriously. If a 2HD ogre really worth an ECL +7 ? Compare a 8th-level human fighter and a 1st-level ogre fighter. Then 8th-level human rogue and 1st-level human rogue. Then same wthing with cleric and wizard, and if you're not bored, try paladin, bard, ranger, druid, sorcerer, barbarian and monk also. If in one case the ogre with 1 level is overwhelmingly better than the human with 8, the ECL is justified.

But I'm afraid it is not.

 

[Wolfspider]

Well, if WotC wants to discourage players to making monster characters, they shouldn't publish articles like this and plan to produce a whole supplement about it. They should just make it tabboo and be done with it.

 

[Darklone]

WotC

Well, if WotC wants to discourage players to making monster characters, they shouldn't publish articles like this and plan to produce a whole supplement about it. They should just make it tabboo and be done with it.

Rantmode on: They wanna earn cash. They don't care if they sell crap as long as they sell it. Ask me how many mails about rulesquestions I sent to the WotC and how often they answered? They got fine stuff and they got crap. Buy the fine stuff and the rest is (as it has always been) your own work.
Rantmode off.

Forgive me to say this. If any officials or WotC guys disagree, please state arguments. I will gladly answer them with arguments too.

 

[Oracular Vision]

Slower progression

I guess you guys haven't seen the recommended slower experience progression rules for "super-powerful" PC's using monsters as characters. You gain levels normally, but at the cost as if you were at your ECL. That will slow down people wanting them a lot...

 

[Darklone]

Re: Slower progression

I guess you guys haven't seen the recommended slower experience progression rules for "super-powerful" PC's using monsters as characters. You gain levels normally, but at the cost as if you were at your ECL. That will slow down people wanting them a lot...

I think the guys in this discussion have taken that into account. At least I did. Does not matter much if you built a lvl15 character. Well, you only get 13 character levels if you build a drow, but it will be worth it usually.

 

[SpikeyFreak]

Wolfspider:
But a half-dragon's hit dice type improves to d12 no matter what it was before. Now, for a half-dragon barbarian that doesn't matter at all. But for a sorcerer or wizard (average increase of 4 hp/level)?

Are you sure about that? I'm failry certain that class hit dice over rides race hit dice, and that it what a half-dragons hit dice are.

A kobold has d8 hit dice.

A sorcerer kobold would have d4 hit dice.

A kobold half-dragon would have d10 hit dice.

A kobold sorcerer half-dragon would have d4 hit dice.

--Frex Spikey

Edit: After reading drnuncheon's edit, I had to change the kobold half-dragon hit die size. No comment for 3 hours and the two in the same minute - amazing.

 

[drnuncheon]

Yes, the lizardfolk will get an average of 8 hit points more than his companions. But a half-dragon's hit dice type improves to d12 no matter what it was before.

Are you certain? I was under the impression that that was only the half-dragon's natural hit dice, which definitely does not apply to any class levels the half-dragon might gain.

For example, a half-dragon minotaur would have 6d12 hit dice rather than the 6d8 that minotaurs normaly get. If that half-dragon minotaur then gained a sorcerer level, I believe that he would still only get the 1d4 hit points that anyone else would from getting a sorcerer level.

Are there any classed half-dragons on the Wizards website to use for an example?

J

Edit: actually, after checking the template, the SRD actually says: "Hit Dice: Increase by one die type, to a maximum of d12" - so even if you got the bonus to your levels, it's a whopping +1 hp/level and not the monstrosity that you suggest.

 

[SpikeyFreak]

Re: Re: Slower progression

I think the guys in this discussion have taken that into account. At least I did. Does not matter much if you built a lvl15 character. Well, you only get 13 character levels if you build a drow, but it will be worth it usually.

Not in my campaign.

--Racist Spikey