Lizardfolk = ECL 4?!?!
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CRGreathouse
Community Supporter
Marshall said:
Don't use role-playing restrictions to balance out rules advantages, remember?
Zerovoid
First Post
Marshall said:
I agree, its like they just plugged all the races into some really bad formula. Most of the ECL's look way too high. They say dopplegangers are +8. I figured a doppleganger was probably ECL +4 or +5. I mean, they are basically like the warrior NPC class with some special abilities and stat increases thrown in. If you want to use alter self or detect thoughts, just ask the party wizard to do it. A fighter has 3 extra feats including specialization, as well as the 1st and 3rd level feats, and probably a human bonus feat. Doppleganger has Alertness and Dodge.
Wolfspider
Explorer
True, but in any case, being a large creature has rule-based disadvantages as well. Armor and weapons that the monster can use cost more money to create or buy (and this isn't a role-playing disadvantage--money and cost are wired into the rules). Certain personal spells may not be as effective on the large creature because of its increased weight. And, of course, it receives a penalty to Armor Class and hefty reductions to skills dealing with stealth. I will admit that a large creature also has some good advantages, but it is not without certain costs that are already built into the race without even considering ECL.
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drnuncheon
Explorer
Marshall said:
Skeletons take half damage from piercing or slashing weapons. That's pretty huge. No matter how powerful your attack is - even if it's a 200-point plus smackdown - it's halved if you use that holy sword.
There's no way to get around it either - unlike a lich's damage resistance, which is a mere 15/+1 and dries up and blows away at the first hint of a magic weapon - or even the magic weapon spell.
Also consider that a lich has to be an 11th level spellcaster, minimum. The benefits of lichdom are worth a lot less to somebody at those levels than they would be at lower levels.
Now, I'm not saying that skeletons should be ECL 5 - I'm just saying that they have a lot more going for them than you might think.
J
David Eckelberry
First Post
Sorry boys, Grendel is right
I'm one of the people at WotC who contributed to the design of Tooth & Claw, and who worked on developing ECLs for the creatures for the Monster Manual. To answer some of your questions:
• No, Zerovid, we didn't have a stupid set formula to use. We considered each monster individually and in comparison with other monsters. Then I did some playtesting, from 1-on-1 fights to party composition tests.
• Grendel is dead on with our philosophy. It's already way cool to be able to play a monster (ogre, doppleganger, or lizardfolk, to mention those discussed here), and so it shouldn't also be more powerful than the human PCs in a party. Who would want to be the plain old human if the ogre is not only more interesting, which he'd just about have to be, but also just better?
• Let's talk about the lizardfolk. Some of you noted that the lizardfolk has 2 Hit Dice, and that's important. Your ECL has to *at least* equal your Hit Dice, I hope everyone realizes. And if it does equal your Hit Dice, you should get about, well, nothing else. Now, let's look at what you'd get for playing a lizardfolk. Stats: +2 STR, CON +2, INT –2. That's a very good deal for a fighter. Then there's the +5 natural armor. Equal to 50,000 GP in magic items, and it means that this PC is going to have much higher AC, especially at lower levels when no one can afford a big amulet of natural armor (the lizardfolk fighter can still wear full plate or anything else that a human fighter can). Wouldn't you like to be hit something like 25% less often? Well, I would. Then add the skill bonuses,which aren't terribly important, but they're some nice gravy.
So anyone who wants to give them ECL 2 needs to think again. That's essentially saying that you can make take the half-orc and change his –2 Charisma penalty to a +2 Constitution bonus, add 5 points of natural armor, and that you'd keep him ECL 0. Uh, no.
Now, those of you who thought ECL 4 is a little too high, let's talk. Maybe you think that the bonus to ability scores and natural is worth about a level, not two. So you'd make the lizardfolk ECL 3. I could see merit in that argument; and in fact I might be tempted to agree. I personally think the lizardfolk with the abilities I've listed off is a bit too good at ECL 3, and perhaps a bit too bad at ECL 4. That said, I'd lean toward ECL 4 because though I think playing monsters is cool, and I love doing it and seeing my players do it, I never want someone who plays one of the standard races from the PHB to feel so overpowered, to feel dumb for making that choice.
But we forgot something! The lizardfolk, on top of everything else, has a claw/claw/bite routine. That means that, before adding anything else, this character is going to be able to make 3 attacks per round. Sure, those attacks don't do that much damage really individually (though they will on a PC lizardfolk, which can easily have 20 STR), but a little knowledge of the D&D game will teach you that it's better to have an extra attack with one or two less points of damage. Moreover, think about the lizardfolk with just 1 rogue level. Get this guy a flank and he's swinging three times per round, with three possible sneak attacks. That's the sauce, people.
When you consider a monster and its ECL, be careful to consider every line of the statistic block, every ability score adjustment, and every special ability. It's a complex thing, part art and part science. You have to consider what those abilities will mean in a party, where they may have been less relevant to a monster encountered in a room and defeated and never seen again. Lots of things go into the process, and it took a team here hundreds of total man-hours to work up ECLs you're seeing.
That's not to say we can't make mistakes. It is true that some of the ECLs may be too high, and some too low. We continue to playtest and discuss them here in preparation for the book Tooth & Claw.
David Eckelberry
R&D, Wizards of the Coast
I'm one of the people at WotC who contributed to the design of Tooth & Claw, and who worked on developing ECLs for the creatures for the Monster Manual. To answer some of your questions:
• No, Zerovid, we didn't have a stupid set formula to use. We considered each monster individually and in comparison with other monsters. Then I did some playtesting, from 1-on-1 fights to party composition tests.
• Grendel is dead on with our philosophy. It's already way cool to be able to play a monster (ogre, doppleganger, or lizardfolk, to mention those discussed here), and so it shouldn't also be more powerful than the human PCs in a party. Who would want to be the plain old human if the ogre is not only more interesting, which he'd just about have to be, but also just better?
• Let's talk about the lizardfolk. Some of you noted that the lizardfolk has 2 Hit Dice, and that's important. Your ECL has to *at least* equal your Hit Dice, I hope everyone realizes. And if it does equal your Hit Dice, you should get about, well, nothing else. Now, let's look at what you'd get for playing a lizardfolk. Stats: +2 STR, CON +2, INT –2. That's a very good deal for a fighter. Then there's the +5 natural armor. Equal to 50,000 GP in magic items, and it means that this PC is going to have much higher AC, especially at lower levels when no one can afford a big amulet of natural armor (the lizardfolk fighter can still wear full plate or anything else that a human fighter can). Wouldn't you like to be hit something like 25% less often? Well, I would. Then add the skill bonuses,which aren't terribly important, but they're some nice gravy.
So anyone who wants to give them ECL 2 needs to think again. That's essentially saying that you can make take the half-orc and change his –2 Charisma penalty to a +2 Constitution bonus, add 5 points of natural armor, and that you'd keep him ECL 0. Uh, no.
Now, those of you who thought ECL 4 is a little too high, let's talk. Maybe you think that the bonus to ability scores and natural is worth about a level, not two. So you'd make the lizardfolk ECL 3. I could see merit in that argument; and in fact I might be tempted to agree. I personally think the lizardfolk with the abilities I've listed off is a bit too good at ECL 3, and perhaps a bit too bad at ECL 4. That said, I'd lean toward ECL 4 because though I think playing monsters is cool, and I love doing it and seeing my players do it, I never want someone who plays one of the standard races from the PHB to feel so overpowered, to feel dumb for making that choice.
But we forgot something! The lizardfolk, on top of everything else, has a claw/claw/bite routine. That means that, before adding anything else, this character is going to be able to make 3 attacks per round. Sure, those attacks don't do that much damage really individually (though they will on a PC lizardfolk, which can easily have 20 STR), but a little knowledge of the D&D game will teach you that it's better to have an extra attack with one or two less points of damage. Moreover, think about the lizardfolk with just 1 rogue level. Get this guy a flank and he's swinging three times per round, with three possible sneak attacks. That's the sauce, people.
When you consider a monster and its ECL, be careful to consider every line of the statistic block, every ability score adjustment, and every special ability. It's a complex thing, part art and part science. You have to consider what those abilities will mean in a party, where they may have been less relevant to a monster encountered in a room and defeated and never seen again. Lots of things go into the process, and it took a team here hundreds of total man-hours to work up ECLs you're seeing.
That's not to say we can't make mistakes. It is true that some of the ECLs may be too high, and some too low. We continue to playtest and discuss them here in preparation for the book Tooth & Claw.
David Eckelberry
R&D, Wizards of the Coast
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drnuncheon
Explorer
Zerovoid said:
At will? Anytime you want? How many spells does this wizard have? How many times does he have alter self and detect thoughts memorized, and doesn't he have any other 2nd level spells he wants to use?
If you have a doppleganger, you're dealing with a character who can change shape and read minds anytime he wants to. The only way that wouldn't be phenomenally useful is if a) you only had straight-up combat or b) the player playing the doppleganger was a total moron.
It's got 4 hit dice and a BAB of +3. We'll call that roughly equivalent to a 3rd levle warrior, because he gets fewer skills. 3rd level warrior is ECL +2. What's left?
It's also going to have an armor class 4 points higher than the other characters of its class because of the natural armor.
Then there's the detect thoughts. Continuously. No more ambushes. Always know when someone is lying to you. And alter self. +10 to your disguise rolls. Ability to fly and breathe water. Look like anyone, infiltrate anywhere.
+2 or +4 in all stats. No penalties whatsoever.
Immunity to sleep and charm. (And don't forget, as type Shapechanger, dopplegangers are immune to spells that only target Humanoids, like daze, dominate person, ghoul touch and hold person.)
Effectively, the doppleganger also gets multiple "unarmed" attacks (slams) for better damage (1d6) and no penalty for multiple attacks.
So, are you seriously saying that +4 natural armor, two 2nd level spell-like abilities that you can perform at will, bonuses to all my stats, better immunities than an elf, and superior attacks is only worth +2ECL? That a character with all of those abilities is seriously equivalent to a 5th level fighter? Come on.
J
CRGreathouse
Community Supporter
Wolfspider said:
I'm quite aware of the disadvantages of being a Large Humanoid as opposed to a Medium-size Humanoid: -1 attack, -1 AC, -4 Hide, and armor base cost x2. Let's look at these:
-1 AC. This is a loss, but not too great - especially if it's backed up with a natural armor increase.
-1 Attack. Same as above, but Str increases help here.
-4 Hide. OK, you'll never be up to par with Hide, especially if you have a Dex penalty.
Expensive armor: This costs at most 1500 gp, since the cost for masterworking and enhancement doesn't go up. This is pocket change at higher levels, and not a terrible cost at lower levels - especially if you only have to shell out 100 gp extra for a Large chain shirt.
To offset these:
x2 carrying capacity. This is useful, but not game-breaking.
Ability to use larger weapons. Replace your +5 full plate[/] and greatsword combo with the less expensive +3 full plate, +3 large steel shield, and greatsword (+3 AC!), or just dish out more damage with a Huge greatsword.
Re: Sorry boys, Grendel is right
David,
Thank you for your contribution to this discussion. I have a few quick questions for you if you don't mind.
Was there a conscious effort made to alter the existing DMG/FRCS numbers? We have noticed variations and want to know what that is all about.
One of the most frequently noticed examples is the half-dragon template. The Dragon Magazine article lists it as now being ECL+4 as opposed to the +3 it is in the DMG.
Can you ellaborate on why that is?
Also, are these new numbers "official"? Often is it hard to determine when a Dragon Mag article is errata or just a writer's personal opinion.
Thank you for your time.
David,
Thank you for your contribution to this discussion. I have a few quick questions for you if you don't mind.
Was there a conscious effort made to alter the existing DMG/FRCS numbers? We have noticed variations and want to know what that is all about.
One of the most frequently noticed examples is the half-dragon template. The Dragon Magazine article lists it as now being ECL+4 as opposed to the +3 it is in the DMG.
Can you ellaborate on why that is?
Also, are these new numbers "official"? Often is it hard to determine when a Dragon Mag article is errata or just a writer's personal opinion.
Thank you for your time.
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