Lizardfolk = ECL 4?!?!

[drnuncheon]

An orge is now ECL +8!

That is horrible. The +5 from the DMG was too much.

I have playtested and Ogre Fighter 1 versus a Fighter 6. According to the DMG this fight has a 50/50 chance of going either way. It does not. The ogre dies every time.

Did you use the standard Ogre plus a level of fighter? Remember that is an average member of the race. To be fair you need to give them both the same stat range. I also wonder how the ogre was played.

I took the liberty of running the numbers through the Munchkin Damage Calculator just to see how much of a hurting they'd be putting on each other in a round. Both are standard DMG NPCs for their level, although the ogre will keep his armament of a Huge greatclub rather than using the bastard sword of the fighter. He'll also swap EWP: Bastard Sword for Power Attack and WF: BS for oh, I dunno, Cleave.

Armored in ogre-sized splint mail and with Str 25, Dex 11, and 48 hp, the ogre has an AC of 20. With his Huge greatclub he has +11 to hit (+7 str, +4 BAB, +1 WF, -1 size) and deals out an average of ~9 points of damage to the fighter per round.

The fighter (with his AC 22 and 49 hp) does an average of 11 points of damage to the ogre per round. Looks bad for the ogre until you consider that the ogre's going to get an extra attack in because of his reach, which evens things out more than a bit.

And then there's the Large and In Charge feat from Sword & Fist. Let's give our ogre that instead of Cleave. The fighter moves in, the ogre hits him with an AoO, and gets a +11 to his strength check to push the fighter back...

Anyway, I'm kind of curious why your fighters won so easily. I suspect it's because you weren't treating the ogres like any other character...

J

 

[reapersaurus]

Re: Sorry boys, Grendel is right

I'm one of the people at WotC who contributed to the design of Tooth & Claw...

Who would want to be the plain old human if the ogre is not only more interesting, which he'd just about have to be, but also just better?

• Your ECL has to *at least* equal your Hit Dice, I hope everyone realizes. And if it does equal your Hit Dice, you should get about, well, nothing else.
Then there's the +5 natural armor. Equal to 50,000 GP in magic items...

Well, thanks for helping us out with the thought process.
However, I'm disappointed at the logic you used to determine these ECL.

First off: playing a monster race has a HUGE limiting factor:
unless you're playing in a Disneyland campaign, there are going to have significant role-playing limitations, which DO affect the playability, and definately the "kewlness" of playing one.

You can't just ignore that and wave it off as irrelevant.

About the Hit Dice:
Someone else hit it SMACK on the head:
I REALLY don't hope you in the R&D group at WotC don't believe that 2 Hit Dice equal 2 class levels added on to a base race.

That is almost the silliest approach I've ever heard from an official representative of WotC (no offense, David).

Further, I also hope you don't think that a bonus to natural armor is worth 50,000 g.p.'s.
A magic item that casts Barkskin 3 times per day costs less than 5,000 g.p. (restricted to a certain class or somesuch)

Overall, the biggest mistake in approach is with the HD: an extra few hit points does NOT increase a creature's effectiveness that much.
If so, a Toad familiar would increase a character's ECL by at LEAST 2...

 

[CRGreathouse]

I'll go 50/50 with Reaper.

First, I don't care how big or how played up, role-playing restrictions don't make up for more powerful races or classes. Period.

However, your statement that 2 HD = 2 level being "almost the silliest approach I've ever heard from an official representative of WotC" is dead on. I ca only hope that you meant that in a general way and don't really count the HD as straight 1:1 ECL. If you do, bad bad bad bad bad! Naughty WotC!

I'm sure you'll do a solid job on T&C, but be careful - no one really thinks 2d8 HD, +1 BAB, a meager allotment of skill points, and those base saves are equal to 2 levels of fighter.

 

[Allister]

Why compare the base humanoid to a fighter? Use a barbarian instead.

 

[jeffh]

Now The F1 ogre has +1 to hit and 10 Hp than one ogre and 1 more feat, and he is facing 2. Mybet is that he is going to get hammered, even with the bless spell cast by the cleric...
Don't think the other will fare much better...

Did you equip the ogre PCs properly (like any other 9th level character) and generate their stats via 4d6-drop-the-lowest plus racial adjustments? If not, you're attacking a strawman. If so, they WILL cream the group of normal ogres you sent against them.

 

[Wolfspider]

Did you equip the ogre PCs properly (like any other 9th level character) and generate their stats via 4d6-drop-the-lowest plus racial adjustments?

Well, that's the problem. According to the DMG, monster characters only get equipment according to their class levels, not including monster ECL:

"A creature with no class levels has the standard gear for a creature of its kind. A creature with class levels has equipment worth an amount based on the total of those class levels (see Table 2-24 : Starting Equipment for PCs above 1st level). " (p. 24)

Of course, Tooth and Claw may change that aspect of monster character creation (I certainly hope so!), but as it stands now....

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

First, I don't care how big or how played up, role-playing restrictions don't make up for more powerful races or classes. Period.

I 100% agree here.

However, your statement that 2 HD = 2 level being "almost the silliest approach I've ever heard from an official representative of WotC" is dead on. I ca only hope that you meant that in a general way and don't really count the HD as straight 1:1 ECL. If you do, bad bad bad bad bad! Naughty WotC!

I also agree here, UNLESS, the creature type in question has a +1 BAB/HD advancement. So if you want to play a monstrous humanaoid with 4HD, +0 to all stats and no special abilties of any type. +4ECL. Sure, it would clearly be weaker than a standard class. But I don't like the idea of a character with a BAB greater than its total level. If you really like this character idea, you either accept the slightly weaker character or choose something else.

I guess a better way to say it is that I think +1 BAB = +1 ECL at a minimum would be a better rule. Then look at HD and other abilities.

So the ogre would be +3 coming out of the gate. Then you add in +10 STR, +5 nat armor, etc...

I'm sure you'll do a solid job on T&C, but be careful - no one really thinks 2d8 HD, +1 BAB, a meager allotment of skill points, and those base saves are equal to 2 levels of fighter.

Agreed.

Though I also agree with the earlier point that you should err on the side of favoring the core races (not a lot, but always a little). If you get to play an ogre, the guy playing the ~boring~ human should at least get to know that he is going to be a clear contributer to the effectiveness of the party. Otherwise the human player will just want to play something like an ogre as well.

As to the "social" limitations, not only do they not cancel out combat advantages, in my experience, virtually everyone who wants to play a monster type character finds these "problems" to actually be an incentive to play the race. An incentive should never be a justification for more power as well.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Re: Re: Sorry boys, Grendel is right

Overall, the biggest mistake in approach is with the HD: an extra few hit points does NOT increase a creature's effectiveness that much.
If so, a Toad familiar would increase a character's ECL by at LEAST 2...

Like I said above, I largely agree with this. But it is worth pointing out that monster HD provide a lot more than Hit points. They also get better saves, skill points, feats and BAB.

Of course, so do classes. And the classes also get special abilities. So there is no doubt that you are correct, you are just over-stating it a bit.

 

[Henry]

Re: Re: Sorry boys, Grendel is right

Further, I also hope you don't think that a bonus to natural armor is worth 50,000 g.p.'s.
A magic item that casts Barkskin 3 times per day costs less than 5,000 g.p. (restricted to a certain class or somesuch)

Reapersaurus, think about this:

A lizardfolk with a +5 natural armor bonus has the equivalent of an Amulet of Natural Armor +5 that can never be taken off or dispelled, and is not spoiled by an antimagic field - unlike your Barkskin casting item, it also never runs out of charges and does not require being "put on" or "casted."

The Amulet of Natural Armor has a DMG value of 50,000 gp. Counting the lizardfolk's +5 natural armor as worth the same amount is actually being generous.

 

[green slime]

Comparing a 1st level fighter Ogre to a 9th level human fighter (or 1st level fighter Lizardfolk to a 5th level human fighter) will result in differently then a comparison between a 16th level Lizardfolk fighter, 12th level Ogre fighter, and 20th level human fighter...

Trying to staple these down to a set value is bound to create controversy, no matter what the result.