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LMoP - Goblin Ambush - Stealth and Surprise
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<blockquote data-quote="Rya.Reisender" data-source="post: 7007325" data-attributes="member: 6801585"><p>Well, in that case, let me give you the two important bullet points:</p><p>1. Surprise can only happen if the whole group is being stealthy</p><p>2. Hidden is not a status change, but a "per character relation", consequently you can only hide from something you are aware of</p><p></p><p>These alone are sufficient to know why the goblins cannot be ambushed. The adventure basically starts with the ambush scenario. It only gives players a single turn to notice the goblins before they attack. Even if they notice the goblins, they won't get another turn to hide from them, because at that point, the goblins are already aware of a threat and attack.</p><p></p><p>Now you can push that into complexity by discussing it more in detail:</p><p></p><p>- What if just one person is stealthy and scouts ahead? --> This is not handled in the rules at all, so DM has decide what to do about that. I personally would allow the group to split up so only some need to win the stealth roll, but everybody not rolling stealth cannot join the battle on round 1. But the DM might just as well decide that it's either all roll stealth or none.</p><p></p><p>- Should I really go by the stealth rules here? --> If you do, your players will just always be stealthy to get a chance at a surprise attack. It will be annoying to have your players constantly say "We walk around the corner... but stealthily!" just so they avoid the DM going "Haha, you didn't say stealthily, now you don't gain the chance for a surprise attack!". So might as well default to always rolling stealth at the beginning of every battle. I personally find that too annoying, though. I'd leaning towards only allowing surprise in specific situations the adventure path handles. In that case I do quite some preparation as DM by making players first aware of a threat and then intentionally telling them they haven't been noticed yet and asking them how they want to approach that threat. Is that in the rules? Only somewhat by saying "The DM determines surprise" and referring to "In specific situations surprise can happen".</p><p></p><p>- Is there any benefit to scouting stealthily ahead? --> Well yes, also not clearly written in the rules, but one can assume that if the goblins noticed 3 threats but not the 4th because it won the stealth roll, then they wouldn't be aware of the presence of that 4th person until it acts. But again, it depends on the DM. Other DMs might argue that you can't hide out-of-combat at all because the Hide Action is a combat action. And again a good reason to rule like that is again preventing the rogue from constantly telling you he is being stealthy. On the other hand the DM has full control over who to attack in the first place, so even if we don't assume the rogue is "Hidden", could make the goblins attack the other targets reasoning that they just attack the most obvious threat in the first 6 seconds without looking much around for more.</p><p></p><p>So yeah it will also get confusing the moment you try to understand the stealth rules "RAW". So it's better not to try to figure out how they are actually meant and rather try to figure what the most fun for your group is. And that's best done by talking with them rather than reading the rules thoroughly.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Rya.Reisender, post: 7007325, member: 6801585"] Well, in that case, let me give you the two important bullet points: 1. Surprise can only happen if the whole group is being stealthy 2. Hidden is not a status change, but a "per character relation", consequently you can only hide from something you are aware of These alone are sufficient to know why the goblins cannot be ambushed. The adventure basically starts with the ambush scenario. It only gives players a single turn to notice the goblins before they attack. Even if they notice the goblins, they won't get another turn to hide from them, because at that point, the goblins are already aware of a threat and attack. Now you can push that into complexity by discussing it more in detail: - What if just one person is stealthy and scouts ahead? --> This is not handled in the rules at all, so DM has decide what to do about that. I personally would allow the group to split up so only some need to win the stealth roll, but everybody not rolling stealth cannot join the battle on round 1. But the DM might just as well decide that it's either all roll stealth or none. - Should I really go by the stealth rules here? --> If you do, your players will just always be stealthy to get a chance at a surprise attack. It will be annoying to have your players constantly say "We walk around the corner... but stealthily!" just so they avoid the DM going "Haha, you didn't say stealthily, now you don't gain the chance for a surprise attack!". So might as well default to always rolling stealth at the beginning of every battle. I personally find that too annoying, though. I'd leaning towards only allowing surprise in specific situations the adventure path handles. In that case I do quite some preparation as DM by making players first aware of a threat and then intentionally telling them they haven't been noticed yet and asking them how they want to approach that threat. Is that in the rules? Only somewhat by saying "The DM determines surprise" and referring to "In specific situations surprise can happen". - Is there any benefit to scouting stealthily ahead? --> Well yes, also not clearly written in the rules, but one can assume that if the goblins noticed 3 threats but not the 4th because it won the stealth roll, then they wouldn't be aware of the presence of that 4th person until it acts. But again, it depends on the DM. Other DMs might argue that you can't hide out-of-combat at all because the Hide Action is a combat action. And again a good reason to rule like that is again preventing the rogue from constantly telling you he is being stealthy. On the other hand the DM has full control over who to attack in the first place, so even if we don't assume the rogue is "Hidden", could make the goblins attack the other targets reasoning that they just attack the most obvious threat in the first 6 seconds without looking much around for more. So yeah it will also get confusing the moment you try to understand the stealth rules "RAW". So it's better not to try to figure out how they are actually meant and rather try to figure what the most fun for your group is. And that's best done by talking with them rather than reading the rules thoroughly. [/QUOTE]
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