D&D 5E LMoP - Goblin Ambush - Stealth and Surprise

[Osirisx]

Hey guys,

So we're introducing ourselves to 5E through Lost Mine of Phandelver, and first encounter, we ran into an issue. We've read through the basic rules, starter rules, PHB and DMG. We've gone through other Threads on the subject. But we still don't have a clear answer.

Here's the confusion.

1. The starter book explicitly says "The characters cannot surprise the goblins." It does not say why this is so. They do not have the Alert feat.
2. A halfling rogue, if playing by the stealth v perception/passive perception, successfully used stealth to sneak up ahead of the party to the area in which the book says the goblin ambush should be triggered. She also successfully hid behind the horses laying on the road.
3. The goblins did not surprise her.

As far as I can tell, she should, by the rules, surprise the goblins, and therefore gain advantage on her attack and use sneak attack. But by certain wording in the starter rulebook, it seems that's not possible.

So how would you suggest handling the described encounter? And why can the party not surprise the goblins? Any opinions would be appreciated. Thanks!

 

[aco175]

I tend to err on the side of players having fun and letting characters do awesome things to help have fun. I'm not sure if the book was made early in 5e and as a starter module, it wanted to have PCs go through certain steps and situations to get a handle on the rules before letting go of the reigns so to speak. I would let the thief sneak up as long as the PCs saw them hidden.

A side note- several threads on these boards show how others have improved on LMoP as a module and help things run better. I have not played with these modifications, but others saw they are good.

Also, welcome to Enworld

 

[Uller]

Well...reading the block text for the encounter, I think it assumes the PCs and the wagon are in plain view on the road when the come around the bend and are 50' from the horses. The goblins should be aware of the PCs by now. If they are aware then they can't really be surprised by RAW.

Here is how I handle these situations.

The character (PC, monster, NPC) that initiates the fight gets an automatic init score of 20 if no one on the other side is aware of that character.

So...if the PCs came in view of the dead horses and the rogue snuck off to the side and managed to sneak in view of the goblins and then attack them, I'd give the rogue a 20 on it's init. Since the goblins are aware of the other PCs and everyone goes into combat mode at that point, I'd have everyone just roll init. It is impossible for any of them to actually be surprised since every character (on each side) is aware of hostile characters nearby.

Surprise (RAW) is VERY powerful. It should require some good planning to pull off, especially at close range.

Also, I don't understand how the halfling got to the dead horses without being noticed. The goblins are watching and alert and the dead horse is in the middle of the road.

 

[Osirisx]

Thanks for the welcome. I kind of wondered if it was purely to introduce the stealth rule simply and gradually, but as the players has some idea of it to begin with it only caused confusion. Thanks for your response.

"Well...reading the block text for the encounter, I think it assumes the PCs and the wagon are in plain view on the road when the come around the bend and are 50' from the horses. The goblins should be aware of the PCs by now. If they are aware then they can't really be surprised by RAW."

Yup, that too occurred to me as I wrote this Thread. There was no map provided for this encounter on Roll20. But I think you're probably both right.

 

[Uller]

Oh...and welcome to the board. Since your first post is about stealth, be prepared for a holy war. Opinions are strong on this topic. My advice: take aco175's advice and just run it however seems most fun to your players.

 

[Uller]

One last thing: It is possible for the PCs to gain surprise if you give the players leeway. My players decided that the monk wood elf would be walking ahead of the party, keeping a lookout and staying out of sight...so they got the jump on the goblins who I decided only had one lookout and he failed to notice her once she spotted the ambush area and took to the woods.

 

[iserith]

Hey guys,

So we're introducing ourselves to 5E through Lost Mine of Phandelver, and first encounter, we ran into an issue. We've read through the basic rules, starter rules, PHB and DMG. We've gone through other Threads on the subject. But we still don't have a clear answer.

Here's the confusion.

1. The starter book explicitly says "The characters cannot surprise the goblins." It does not say why this is so. They do not have the Alert feat.

What [MENTION=413]Uller[/MENTION] said. I also see this as something of a "cold open" to the adventure. Once the players are bought into the hook, then *smash cut* they're on the road looking at some dead horses and, after some description, the combat sequence begins. This is also known as in medias res and it's a fun technique in my view because it gets to the action faster and starts the PCs off in a compelling situation that demands their attention.

2. A halfling rogue, if playing by the stealth v perception/passive perception, successfully used stealth to sneak up ahead of the party to the area in which the book says the goblin ambush should be triggered. She also successfully hid behind the horses laying on the road.
3. The goblins did not surprise her.

As far as I can tell, she should, by the rules, surprise the goblins, and therefore gain advantage on her attack and use sneak attack. But by certain wording in the starter rulebook, it seems that's not possible.

So how would you suggest handling the described encounter? And why can the party not surprise the goblins? Any opinions would be appreciated. Thanks!

It's not really up to the rules to say whether the goblins (or anyone!) are surprised. It's up to you, the DM. It's only when you're not sure that you use the rules to make a determination. In this case, the book helps you decide that by establishing that for [reasons] they aren't. Fill in your own reason that makes sense in the fiction.

 

[discosoc]

"Specific Beats General."

Rulings don't really get more specific that being explicitly set in the adventure's encounter. Usually an adventure will explain why something like is happening*1*, but as a DM you'll need to get used to filling in a lot of blanks even in the best of circumstances.

That said, I think the way surprise works in 5e should be clarified for you a bit. Basically, a character is either surprised or not. There's no grey area where they might be surprised by one source but not another, and there's no such thing as a "surprise round." For example, if a group of 5 PC's are sneaking up some goblins, and none of the goblins notices *any* of the PC's, then all of the goblins are surprised and can't act or react on the first round of combat. If 1 of the PC's botched the stealth roll, but the other PC's passed, then the goblins are *not* surprised because they have detected a threat. It doesn't matter that they don't fully understand the scope of the threat (they just see the one clumsy PC stumbling in the bushes, but don't know about the other 4), they are no longer considered "surprised," so they can act on the first round like normal, although they wouldn't know about the other 4 PCs.

That means the 4 PCs who successfully stealthed start combat "hidden," which basically means they get an advantage to their first attack*2*.

So if your rogue player sneaked up on the goblins, he starts combat as an unseen attacker (PHB p194). The goblins aren't surprised (because the adventure says so), which means they get to act normally on the first round of combat (although they wouldn't be able to target the rogue until after he attacks or reveals himself).

*1*
There are a variety of reasons why it might not be possible to surprise the goblins. Perhaps a goblin leader came through only moments before and they are on their best lookout. Or maybe a wild dog just dragged a goblin away in the bushes and now they are all scared and paranoid about when it strikes next. Those kinds of things could easily explain why the players are unable to surprise the goblins, at no fault of their own.

*2*
Attacking while hidden is another grey area with 5e, with how the stealth rules are kind of poorly-defined. Making a ranged attack is simple enough, but according to the Hiding excerpt on PHB p177, creatures generally stay alert in combat and will see you as soon as you come out of hiding (such as leaving the bushes to move up and attack). It then states that the DM might let you stay hidden if the creature is distracted, which would allow you to retain advantage to your attack roll. The problem here is that, like many instances of 5e, you have one rule stating one thing, then immediately saying that it might not always be true and it's up to the DM.

So as the DM, you'll need to clarify how you intend to handle these things, possibly on a case-by-case basis. I generally allow unseen attackers to move into melee and attack as long as the stealth check still beats the passive perception.

 

[Lidgar]

Right, as others have said, there is a difference between a group of creatures being surprised and those creatures being unaware of a particular creature(s) because they are hidden.

In short, to catch the goblins by surprise, the entire party would need to be undetected by them, not just one member. The way the adventure is set up, it assumes the party is coming down the road together with the cart and horses. Thus the goblins hear the approaching party and cannot be surprised (they are aware of at least one threat). It doesn't matter if they don't see all the party members; they cannot be surprised once they detect a threat.

To gain surprise, the rogue would need to be far ahead of the party so that goblins cannot hear the approaching cart and horses and thus be unaware of a threat. The rogue's stealth roll would also need to be higher than the passive perception of the goblins.

 

[robus]

I still feel like this was a terrible way to introduce new players to the game. Fine for seasoned folks grappling with new rules. But for people trying to grok the concept? Talk about being thrown in the deep end!