D&D 5E LMoP - Goblin Ambush - Stealth and Surprise

[discosoc]

The description of the environment appears to negate the possibility of hiding in this fashion. It's a road with an embankment on either side. That's wide open - nothing to hide behind. The trees are up on the embankment.

Which is why I said it depends on if the DM thinks there is enough cover for it. Still, the description of the encounter does state that "the woods press close to the trail here, with a steep embankment and dense thickets on either side." To me that seems like it's at least worth asking the DM if stealth alongside the woods is an option. If the player has it in his head that there's plenty of places to hide (places like the goblins found) and sneak around, the DM should be able to quickly confirm or clarify it. That sort of Player/DM communication is actually pretty important to establish.

 

[Osirisx]

How did the halfling stay ahead of the wagon while stealthing? That requires traveling at a slow pace. Why would the other PCs tolerate such a pace and keep from catching up (continuously) to the "hiding" scout.

Firstly you have to understand that we are all absolute noobs, first-time players, every one of us. Second, we're following the Starter Campaign. People who know D&D well may have played it differently. For us, travelling up to the point of Goblin Arrows involved no "rules of travel." When Part I: Goblin Arrows began, we were on a map as described in the book, 50 feet away from the goblins/horses. The party chose to stay behind, with the wagon, 50 feet away. Another player essentially insisted the halfling "stealth" ahead of them to check out the horses. Sorry if this was a silly question.

 

[Osirisx]

The only thing predetermined is that the goblins will not be surprised. They can still very well fail to detect a character sneaking up alongside the road (provided the DM thinks there's enough cover for it), but even if that person notices the goblins and attempts to attack from stealth (say with a bow attack across the road), the goblins will not be surprised. All this means is that, no matter what, the goblins will also act on the first round of combat. If any of the players are surprised, they do not get to act or react for that round.

So if I were to play it out this way, and say the character successfully stealthed but, due to the rules of this encounter, the goblins were not surprised, would I then grant the halfing Advantage and would anything cancel that out?

 

[iserith]

Which is why I said it depends on if the DM thinks there is enough cover for it. Still, the description of the encounter does state that "the woods press close to the trail here, with a steep embankment and dense thickets on either side." To me that seems like it's at least worth asking the DM if stealth alongside the woods is an option. If the player has it in his head that there's plenty of places to hide (places like the goblins found) and sneak around, the DM should be able to quickly confirm or clarify it. That sort of Player/DM communication is actually pretty important to establish.

The description is quite clear. Road is bounded by steep embankments which implies the trees are up on an elevation and aren't easy to reach - a great place for the goblins to ambush travelers. The player tries to have his character sneak up to horses and fails outright. That's fine in my view in the context of this specific encounter.

 

[happyhermit]

Firstly you have to understand that we are all absolute noobs, first-time players, every one of us. Second, we're following the Starter Campaign.

That's awesome, I think as long as you roll with it the starter set will work really well, I hope you guys still had fun.

People who know D&D well may have played it differently. For us, travelling up to the point of Goblin Arrows involved no "rules of travel." When Part I: Goblin Arrows began, we were on a map as described in the book, 50 feet away from the goblins/horses. The party chose to stay behind, with the wagon, 50 feet away. Another player essentially insisted the halfling "stealth" ahead of them to check out the horses. Sorry if this was a silly question.

This is where I think things went "off" though, at 50ft away where the adventure starts, the goblins are already aware of the party. So, sure the halfling can sneak ahead (only effectively if they cannot clearly be seen), but the goblins are already aware of their presence so they won't be "surprised". The adventure is just trying to make that part clear without explaining why. As a point of reference, 50ft is a few car lengths, horses and carts are not stealthy.

 

[discosoc]

So if I were to play it out this way, and say the character successfully stealthed but, due to the rules of this encounter, the goblins were not surprised, would I then grant the halfing Advantage and would anything cancel that out?

The character can stealth, and still not catch the goblins by surprise. If he's successful at his stealth check, and he notices the goblins because their stealth didn't beat his passive perception, he can certainly initiate combat and get advantage to his first attack because they didn't know he was there. They weren't surprised so they will get to act during the first round, but they won't be able to target him until after he's revealed himself.

Just because he initiates combat, however, doesn't mean he acts first. Everyone still rolls initiative and acts in turn order. If the goblins happen to roll higher than him for initiative, they would probably take the Ready Action since he hasn't revealed himself yet. If they rolled lower than him on initiative, they'd be free to act as normal because he is no longer hidden after he makes his attack. Details of the Ready action can be found on page 193 of the Player's Handbook, or page 72 of the Basic Rules Download.

If you're confused about the ready action, or why they'd possibly want to use, let me know. Also, it's possible that your player will want to attack, then attempt to stealth again by jumping back into some bushes. Without going into the "why," just state that it's not possible because they've already seen him. There are ways around it, especially with certain classes, races, or feats, but for now combat stealthing is not an option.

 

[discosoc]

The description is quite clear. Road is bounded by steep embankments which implies the trees are up on an elevation and aren't easy to reach - a great place for the goblins to ambush travelers. The player tries to have his character sneak up to horses and fails outright. That's fine in my view in the context of this specific encounter.

Sneak up to the horse, sure. But I willing to bet the player is going to intend to stay in the trees to see what kind of details he can make out of the horses on the road. That sounds like a perfectly fine reason for stealth to work, although depending on how far the horses are from the tree line, he may not be able to make out many details. If the goblins are close enough to be able to rush in and attack on the first turn from the trees, it stands to reason the distance isn't that vast or cumbersome; certainly no greater than 30 feet. Also, keep in mind that when most people go scout ahead, they aren't likely traveling in the middle of the road because that defeats the purpose. The player would very likely already be up on the embankment and in the tress specifically to avoid the very dangers they were sent to look for.

But if you're the DM, and you have it laid out differently, that's fine. Just make sure you communicate it to the players so they understand, and don't just let them make bad decisions based on inaccurate information.

 

[Lidgar]

Another player essentially insisted the halfling "stealth" ahead of them to check out the horses. Sorry if this was a silly question.

It's not a silly question at all. In fact, surprise and stealth rules are probably one of the most discussed rules on these here forums. That and "canon" versus "rules" and other enticing topics.

I think the reason there is confusion for new players (and even old ones that are new to 5e) is that "surprise" in 5e is really more like a condition, brought about by specific circumstances. It does not equate to a group being unaware of a specific creature. Surprise is only triggered if one side is totally unaware of any threat.

So if the adventure begins with the party starting in an open road only 50 feet away from the goblins, there is no way the goblins can be surprised, as they can clearly see the wagon and horses (and presumably at least some of the party). Therefore they see a threat and cannot be surprised. They are watching the road and are aware of a threat and therefore cannot be caught off-guard, even if not necessarily aware of the entire threat (like a rogue scouting in the woods).

 

[Rya.Reisender]

I do think that the LMoP module does a perfect job at introducing all the different mechanics one-by-one while slowing teaching both DM and players all the special situations you can come into.

The very first thing the module teaches you is how to handle traveling: Ask you players who takes the lead, who takes the rear, who drives the wagon, etc.
Through this you already establish which characters even have a chance to spot something.

The reason the goblins can't be surprised is simple. The goblins are actually waiting for targets to ambush. The moment the group travels there, they will already see the wagon as potential target and consequently be aware of a threat.

In general LMoP teaches you that surprise is (and should be) a very situational thing. It can only happen at very few encounters in the module. It will actually specifically say sometimes "these NPCs don't pay much attention so if you do this and that, they will be surprised".
Why this is good? Because if you make surprise just rolling stealth vs. passive perception, then your PCs will very quickly resign to permanently telling you that they are being stealthy to get a chance at surprise at every single battle. That can really ruin the flow and the module kinda wants to discourage that while still providing situations with actual stealth rolls.

The very first combat is teaching players more about avoiding surprise:
- You can decide to not travel at a fast pace so you don't get -5 to passive perception
- Only the PCs actively looking for threats will get the attempt to roll perception actively (if passive perception not high enough)
- Might even factor in what the PCs said they are doing (e.g. only front guards can spot enemies)

Also generally about surprise: As the others said, enemies are only surprised if they don't notice any threat. That means all PCs need to be stealthy and all need to beat passive perception with a stealth roll.

Surprise actually happens rarely up to the point where it's better to not "generally" bother with it and do it more like in the LMoP module where there are very specific battles where surprise works due to context.

 

[machineelf]

Feel free to alter things the way that works best for the situation and your players. So I would let your rogue sneak up on them if she does so successfully.

Having said that, it's extremely weird that your rogue would be sneaking through the woods on the side of the road that far ahead of the rest of the group for the entire day or days and however-many-multiple miles without any reason to beleive they would be ambushed on the journey, thus about doubling the travel time. Just seems like an odd thing to do, and odd that the other player characters would be OK with that. Your player probably didn't think of it this way and was just wanting to sneak because, rogue obviously. But it's one of those cases of a very subtle meta-gaming going on, so subtle your player probably didn't realize it.

Also, the goblins aren't sitting in the middle of the road. They are hidden themselves, camped just off the road in the woods. So depending on which side of the woods your rogue is sneaking through, she may miss them completely. Or she may sneak up on them and notice them at the same time they notice her.

It just makes more sense that the rogue is traveling with the others, with no real reason to sneak at this time, much less for the whole day, at the point at which the adventure begins.