D&D 5E LMoP - Goblin Ambush - Stealth and Surprise

[happyhermit]

...

1. The starter book explicitly says "The characters cannot surprise the goblins." It does not say why this is so. They do not have the Alert feat.
2. A halfling rogue, if playing by the stealth v perception/passive perception, successfully used stealth to sneak up ahead of the party to the area in which the book says the goblin ambush should be triggered. She also successfully hid behind the horses laying on the road.
3. The goblins did not surprise her.

As far as I can tell, she should, by the rules, surprise the goblins, and therefore gain advantage on her attack and use sneak attack. But by certain wording in the starter rulebook, it seems that's not possible.

So how would you suggest handling the described encounter? And why can the party not surprise the goblins? Any opinions would be appreciated. Thanks!

Please don't take this as any sort of criticism or even advice, just about the way it was "intended" to be run.

The adventure starts with;

... As you come around a bend, you spot two dead horses sprawled about fifty feet ahead of you, blocking the path.

There is nothing wrong with backing things up a bit, but it actually starts the characters already only fifty feet from the horses, on the road in plain sight. So, from the intended start they are already seen by the goblins they are aware of them and waiting for them to get in range.

There isn't really any way for lvl1 characters to get to the horses without being seen, by sneaking. You can't hide or stealth from someone who can clearly see you.

 

[discosoc]

I still feel like this was a terrible way to introduce new players to the game. Fine for seasoned folks grappling with new rules. But for people trying to grok the concept? Talk about being thrown in the deep end!

My guess is it was intended specifically to make the first(?) combat easier. Straight up fight without having to deal with stealth or surprise or anything weird like that.

**edit**

I just re-read the encounter and see that's not the case. Looks like it's stacked to make it possible for the players to be surprised but not the goblins. This is probably because the goblins are specifically setting an ambush and are aware of the potential threat. Someone might get the jump on them (rogue attacks from the bushes), but the goblins are not going to be surprised that a threat exists.

 

[Osirisx]

I also see this as something of a "cold open" to the adventure. Once the players are bought into the hook, then *smash cut* they're on the road looking at some dead horses and, after some description, the combat sequence begins.

Rulings don't really get more specific that being explicitly set in the adventure's encounter. Usually an adventure will explain why something like is happening*1*, but as a DM you'll need to get used to filling in a lot of blanks even in the best of circumstances.

The player says "I want to use stealth to scout ahead and check out the horses on the road." How do you respond to this, following the explicit, encounter-specific "the characters can't surprise the goblins" ruling, without spoiling the goblin ambush?

Thanks for all the responses!

 

[iserith]

The player says "I want to use stealth to scout ahead and check out the horses on the road." How do you respond to this, following the explicit, encounter-specific "the characters can't surprise the goblins" ruling, without spoiling the goblin ambush?

Player: I want to use stealth to scout ahead and check out the horses on the road.
DM: Tell me what you mean by "use stealth." What is your character actually doing?
Player: I creep off the road into the brush and make my way up to the horses without being seen or heard.
DM: Cool, you try to do that. As you get closer, shrill shouts in Goblin alert you to a sudden attack by unseen assailants! *rolls goblin Dexterity (Stealth) checks to determine if PCs are surprised*

Takeaways: Players don't ask to make checks. DMs don't ask them to make checks if the outcome of what they want to do is certain.

 

[discosoc]

The player says "I want to use stealth to scout ahead and check out the horses on the road." How do you respond to this, following the explicit, encounter-specific "the characters can't surprise the goblins" ruling, without spoiling the goblin ambush?

Thanks for all the responses!

Since the horses are in the middle of the road, and the goblins are specifically crouched in the bushes watching the area for someone to approach, it's not possible for the player to stealth out into the open like that without the use of something like Invisibility. Basically, their stealth check might very well be great and result in them being quiet, but they are still out in the open.

I'd explain that to the player before they attempt it. They don't have to know there are goblins waiting in ambush, but they should know that stealthing out in the open like that isn't really going to work. Depending on what the edge of the road looks like, they might decide to try stealthing alongside it (perhaps there's a ditch on either side, or maybe the road is lined with bushes all the way down). In that case, they'd roll stealth against the goblin's passive perception and the goblin's stealth check would be compared to that player's passive perception. One or both sides might notice the other trying to hide, or they may not detect each other at all. If the player decides the area is clear and approaches the horses, then the goblins would notice him because he just left cover (he's now in the open). Otherwise, the player can stealth back to the party and report what he saw.

On a side note, situations like this generally warrant the goblin's having advantage on their passive perception since they are specifically setting an ambush and waiting to spring the trap. Normal passive perception is for what people will just notice without paying much attention, but things like an alert guard on duty or goblins waiting to ambush should probably have advantage. Advantage is handled with passive scores by simply adding 5 to the passive perception. So if you decide that the goblins are attentive enough to warrant it, their passive perception would be 14. You could also just as easily rule that these goblins are hardly organized or disciplined enough to stay focused on the ambush, and the mere fact that they can keep quite in the bushes justifies the normal passive perception of 9.

 

[Spohedus]

How did the halfling stay ahead of the wagon while stealthing? That requires traveling at a slow pace. Why would the other PCs tolerate such a pace and keep from catching up (continuously) to the "hiding" scout.

 

[discosoc]

Player: I want to use stealth to scout ahead and check out the horses on the road.
DM: Tell me what you mean by "use stealth." What is your character actually doing?
Player: I creep off the road into the brush and make my way up to the horses without being seen or heard.
DM: Cool, you try to do that. As you get closer, shrill shouts in Goblin alert you to a sudden attack by unseen assailants! *rolls goblin Dexterity (Stealth) checks to determine if PCs are surprised*

Takeaways: Players don't ask to make checks. DMs don't ask them to make checks if the outcome of what they want to do is certain.

The only thing predetermined is that the goblins will not be surprised. They can still very well fail to detect a character sneaking up alongside the road (provided the DM thinks there's enough cover for it), but even if that person notices the goblins and attempts to attack from stealth (say with a bow attack across the road), the goblins will not be surprised. All this means is that, no matter what, the goblins will also act on the first round of combat. If any of the players are surprised, they do not get to act or react for that round. Everyone still rolls and initiative to determine when the actions take place, but that's it. Combat would flow something like this:

1. Player is crouched and hidden on one side of the road (successful stealth check) and notices some goblins crouched on the other side (they failed their stealth check).
2. Player decides to YOLO rather than head back and alert his companions, and says "I want to attack the closest goblin to me."
3. DM calls for initiative for all sides (even if someone is surprised, they still need to roll initiative here). Player rolls 15, Goblins roll 18.
4. Goblins go first but they don't actually see the player because he's still hidden. Since they are waiting in ambush, a "READY" action makes sense, with the trigger being that they charge out or whatever as soon as they see a target.
5. Player fires a shot at a goblin. He gets advantage because he's an unseen attacker, hits, and kills the goblin.
6. With the player now noticed, the 3 remaining goblins' READY action is triggered, allowing them to react. The module states that two were intending to rush into melee, and two were going to hang back and attack with range, so you'll need to know which one the dead goblin was going to do. Those that were attacking at ranged get their attack now that the READY action is triggered. Those that were going to rush into melee get to move up to their speed, but can't attack.
7. At the end of the round, YOLO McStealth has killed one goblin, but is now facing three more. His companions may very well hear the sounds of combat, but are probably too far away to save him.

 

[Shiroiken]

One thing they could have done to make surprise easier would be to make it a condition. Obviously it only matters on the first turn of a combat, but it would get rid of any notion of a "surprise round."

As for the adventure, I construed it that there was too limited cover on the approach for a PC to attempt Stealth in order to gain surprise, since Line of Sight negates any attempt at Stealth. It could have been written better in this regard, but it was early in 5E (before the official rules were even released, IIRC) and Stealth was deliberately written to be vague (to allow DMs to rule as they see fit).

 

[discosoc]

How did the halfling stay ahead of the wagon while stealthing? That requires traveling at a slow pace. Why would the other PCs tolerate such a pace and keep from catching up (continuously) to the "hiding" scout.

Perhaps the group chose to travel slower knowing that their scout was out ahead. Also, rangers are particularly useful here because they would be able to scout ahead at a normal pace.

 

[iserith]

The only thing predetermined is that the goblins will not be surprised. They can still very well fail to detect a character sneaking up alongside the road (provided the DM thinks there's enough cover for it), but even if that person notices the goblins and attempts to attack from stealth (say with a bow attack across the road), the goblins will not be surprised. All this means is that, no matter what, the goblins will also act on the first round of combat. If any of the players are surprised, they do not get to act or react for that round. Everyone still rolls and initiative to determine when the actions take place, but that's it. Combat would flow something like this:

The description of the environment appears to negate the possibility of hiding in this fashion. It's a road with an embankment on either side. That's wide open - nothing to hide behind. The trees are up on the embankment.