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<blockquote data-quote="Magus_Jerel" data-source="post: 191201" data-attributes="member: 3940">yep... and I TOTALLY disagree with you.1. A harmful item may be &quot;planted&quot; on the character without their knowledge (indeed - it is the only reasonable way).&nbsp; Making the list a &quot;negative&quot; one could mean &quot;all items except the one that is not harming me are to be shrunk&quot; - which (because it is a double negative) strikes the &quot;unknown harmful object&quot;2. Items worn - willingly or otherwise - count as equipment.&nbsp; Your would mean that reducing out of manacles becomes just as possible as reducing out of the necklace that is a wee bit too tight.&nbsp; Barring the fact that one might not wish to destroy the method of sealing in the process - the spell can effectively &quot;replace&quot; knock on the spellcaster's list - which is 2nd level.&nbsp; Reduce is 1st, and has uses beyond opening things.&nbsp; Bad move...3. The spell is ALREADY potentially lethal ... drop a hood over someone - and then shrink the hood to induce suffocation.&nbsp; 4. A &quot;Hold&quot; effect may also be possible... if you could shrink full plate mail to skin tight...5. If the arrow is &quot;sticking in&quot; you - and YOU are reduced - you could declare the arrow as &quot;not your equipment&quot; with the deliberate intent of making the spell fail.&nbsp; As you would shrink - and the arrow wouldn't - the arrow would relatively &quot;get bigger inside your flesh... and that would injure you.This be the tip of the iceberg.- My general ruling on this is that items you wear (as opposed to hold in your hand) CANNOT be targeted by a spell that is capable of targeting YOU the individual unless you are using that spell to sunder or break a given object in a creature's posession.Thus - it is possible to use heat metal on a suit of armor (object only) but NOT reduce. Damage dealing spells may automatically be targeted on objects - as they DO have hit points per se.Your &quot;metalogic&quot; problems are threefold:1. If the &quot;determination&quot; is &quot;unconcious&quot; - (a contradiction in and of itself) a character must be able to not only conciously override his uncioncious thought pattern, but also be aware of it.&nbsp; While the second is possible - the first in and of itself is inherently NOT possible - by the virtue of the fact that the thought is unconcious.2. It is physically possible to suspend or control the rate of one's breathing or heartbeat - but you cannot PREVENT them from occuring entirely.&nbsp; Eventually, reflex forces people biologically capable of doing so to breathe - no matter how hard they try not to do so.&nbsp; The &quot;brain waves&quot; emmited can only change - or temporarily counter the signal being emitted.&nbsp; Once the &quot;override&quot; stops working - the signal resumes its normal pattern - and you start to breathe normally again.&nbsp; Your interpretation seems to rely on the fact that a function only possible in the concious mind; determination - exists in the unconcious mind.&nbsp; It doesn't.3. The &quot;arrow is not my equipment causing the spell to fail&quot; trick is problematic. - as the concious choice (legal) allows for something undesired - namely the possible PREVENTION of the spell taking effect despite a failed save.- footnoteD&amp;D Magical compulsion, and by indirect extension most cursed magic items. require understanding the fact that it is quite possible to &quot;force&quot; a behaviour into the subconcious. The lay term is hypnotic programming.&nbsp; Being &quot;hypnotized&quot; is inducing the state under which this programming can occur; and as yet nobody has figured out how to &quot;program&quot; someone to enter that state readily. Charms - inherently work on PC's only in that they force the PC to use the NPC's reaction system - with the appropriate modifier.&nbsp; This is essential - due to the &quot;player conflict of interest&quot; involved.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Magus_Jerel, post: 191201, member: 3940"] yep... and I TOTALLY disagree with you. 1. A harmful item may be "planted" on the character without their knowledge (indeed - it is the only reasonable way). Making the list a "negative" one could mean "all items except the one that is not harming me are to be shrunk" - which (because it is a double negative) strikes the "unknown harmful object" 2. Items worn - willingly or otherwise - count as equipment. Your would mean that reducing out of manacles becomes just as possible as reducing out of the necklace that is a wee bit too tight. Barring the fact that one might not wish to destroy the method of sealing in the process - the spell can effectively "replace" knock on the spellcaster's list - which is 2nd level. Reduce is 1st, and has uses beyond opening things. Bad move... 3. The spell is ALREADY potentially lethal ... drop a hood over someone - and then shrink the hood to induce suffocation. 4. A "Hold" effect may also be possible... if you could shrink full plate mail to skin tight... 5. If the arrow is "sticking in" you - and YOU are reduced - you could declare the arrow as "not your equipment" with the deliberate intent of making the spell fail. As you would shrink - and the arrow wouldn't - the arrow would relatively "get bigger inside your flesh... and that would injure you. This be the tip of the iceberg. - My general ruling on this is that items you wear (as opposed to hold in your hand) CANNOT be targeted by a spell that is capable of targeting YOU the individual unless you are using that spell to sunder or break a given object in a creature's posession. Thus - it is possible to use heat metal on a suit of armor (object only) but NOT reduce. Damage dealing spells may automatically be targeted on objects - as they DO have hit points per se. Your "metalogic" problems are threefold: 1. If the "determination" is "unconcious" - (a contradiction in and of itself) a character must be able to not only conciously override his uncioncious thought pattern, but also be aware of it. While the second is possible - the first in and of itself is inherently NOT possible - by the virtue of the fact that the thought is unconcious. 2. It is physically possible to suspend or control the rate of one's breathing or heartbeat - but you cannot PREVENT them from occuring entirely. Eventually, reflex forces people biologically capable of doing so to breathe - no matter how hard they try not to do so. The "brain waves" emmited can only change - or temporarily counter the signal being emitted. Once the "override" stops working - the signal resumes its normal pattern - and you start to breathe normally again. Your interpretation seems to rely on the fact that a function only possible in the concious mind; determination - exists in the unconcious mind. It doesn't. 3. The "arrow is not my equipment causing the spell to fail" trick is problematic. - as the concious choice (legal) allows for something undesired - namely the possible PREVENTION of the spell taking effect despite a failed save. - footnote D&D Magical compulsion, and by indirect extension most cursed magic items. require understanding the fact that it is quite possible to "force" a behaviour into the subconcious. The lay term is hypnotic programming. Being "hypnotized" is inducing the state under which this programming can occur; and as yet nobody has figured out how to "program" someone to enter that state readily. Charms - inherently work on PC's only in that they force the PC to use the NPC's reaction system - with the appropriate modifier. This is essential - due to the "player conflict of interest" involved. [/QUOTE]

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