Looking for help balancing a prestige class

[Artoomis]

Something that may help is to list out what is gained/lost by the prestige class compared to what the core class(es) that qualify would get at the same character level.

This lets you do a pretty good power comparison.

BTW - don't forget that it's very easy for a barbarian to get himself killed by raging - if you are forced to rage and jump into melee, it will not be too long before you get injured to the point that you will die when you stop raging (from the drop in Con).

You need to balance that out. You don't want to create a character that is designed to kill himself. If you do, you either accept that you'll be making up a new character or you short-change the role-playing aspect to keep the character alive.

 

[drunkadelic]

Wow, Lord Ben, it must be a fact that great minds think alike, because the trading off rages for turns is exactly what Rune and I started contemplating today at work. I think we're going to leave it as a prestige class however and toy with it more on the basis of trading rages for turn attempts or using rages instead of turn attempts, albiet shorter or less powerful rages. Sad to hear that the raging cleric was not included, but as an aside, how is the Kalamar PHB? Fantastically wonderul of Wonderfully fantastic?

Here's a brief sketch of what I'm thinking.

Since the main idea here was to take the Battle Rager cleric, who values the entire portfolio of what a barbarian can do, and mix the two, giving a little taste of both sides with the emphasis on savagery in combat and rage. Ideally, this is not the traditional smack the skeleton, turn the undead, cure light wounds machine. In fact, the more and more I think about it (which makes the trading rages for turn attempts all the more feasable) this character would take so much more delight in crushing the undead with his own strength than calling in a favor to his god to take care of them. Seems to me that Battle Rager would be pissed if his servant needed some help with a few mamby pamby skeletons. Therefore, I'd like to keep the core of the character (for the most part) and add a few things.

I'm going to drop the added rages at 2nd, 6th, and 9th levels. Instead, I'd like to propse this ability.

Rage of Faith - At 1st level, the Sentinel has learned to fuel his combat powers by tapping the endless rage that is his god. Any number of times per day, the Sentinel may trade 1 attempt at turning undead for a rage-like state that adds the following benefits. +2 Str, +2 Con, +2 to Will Saves. This state lasts as many turns as the Sentinel has levels (of Sentinel) + his Wis modifier (as this is a clerical power, emulating a barbarian power). At the end of this state, the cleric is winded as per the rules for barbarian rage in the PHB. At 8th level (Instead of Improved Rage) this becomes +4 Str, +4 Con.

Therefore, the PrC retains the ability to rage, but does not overshoot the base classes abilities. It also ties in the clerical aspect of the character.

However, I can't think of anything to replace the 5th level ability that gives the Sentinel Extended rage for free as in the MotW. Thinking more about this, I don't think I want the rages to last very long, as the nature of it is making the character become a living conduit for his god's anger. I don't think too many characters can hold that up for long. Any suggestions?

 

[Rune]

Not sure yet about the 5th level ability, but at 8th, I like the idea of making Rage of Faith stack with regular rages.
Maybe at 5th, the Sentinel could get DR1 and get DR2 at 7th.

I do like the Rage of Faith ability, however. The Will bonus might be a little too much, I'll have to think about it. I don't think I would have a problem with it lasting as long as a rage would, but only the PrC levels would count for determining that.

 

[Lord Ben]

Completely off-base - but I'd make a faithful rage something else. Maybe each turning attempt adds +4 to an attack roll or something.

Another option is to substitute the turning ability all-together for 1/day you can add your level + charisma mod (if positive) to any roll of your choice while raging. Call it Rush of Adrenaline or something.

 

[Rune]

Completely off-base - but I'd make a faithful rage something else. Maybe each turning attempt adds +4 to an attack roll or something.

Any particular reason?

Another option is to substitute the turning ability all-together for 1/day you can add your level + charisma mod (if positive) to any roll of your choice while raging. Call it Rush of Adrenaline or something.

The prestige class doesn't have a turning ability. The idea was for the prestige class to have an option to turn the turn attempts granted by the qualifying cleric class (not that that would be the only way to go), into mini-rages (that could eventually be stacked with regular rages to simulate improved rage).

Your idea's nice, but I kinda think I like the mini-rage/turn attempt idea.

I think Rush of Adrenaline would do nicely for that 5th level ability, though. At 1/per day, of course. Maybe an additional one at level 9 or 10, as well.

 

[XCorvis]

Sorry? I thought the Reflex save was weak. It should be.

You've got the advancement for it wrong. It should be 0 0 1 1 1 2 2 2 3 3.

Class looks cool, tho.

 

[Lord Ben]

Well, turning them into mini-rages is awfully powerful. A high level barbarian only has like 4 rages, a mid level bbn/clr/PrC could easily have 4 mini-rages with an average charisma. A better charisma means basically every battle you have the mini-rage or regular rage. A bit powerful.

A bonus to hit or damage is probably better then both. Trade them in for a divine bonus to a few skills or maybe for 1 round bonus's to damage and hit and it's much more balanced. What does a Bbn5/Clr5 have? Now compare it to a Bbn2/Clr3/PrC5 - they should be roughly equal in overall power, but a bit more specialized in the PrC.

I'd like to make a 1-20 class instead of PrC personally. I'd trade in cleric abilities - the ability to spontaneously cast cure, turn undead, favored will save, drop heavy armor prof's, and drop the domains and extra domain spells at each level. In return I'd want the martial weapon prof, rage, BAB, and DR of the barbarian, along with a d10 HD.

It appears at first glance to be fairly balanced. One less spell at each level due to domain loss, loss of special domain abilities, you need to prepare cure spells, you can't turn undead. You gain a good BAB, rage, DR at high levels, and you can use martial weapons.

Good divine fighter IMHO.

 

[Al]

Ok, here's my lowdown on the Battlerager:

Prerequisites, skills, hit dice and saves are all fine. Nothing out of the ordinary. Non-lawful alignment is probably preferable, though you'd be foolish not to have it anyway (on account of not being able to rage.)

- Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Proficient with all martial and simple weapons; Proficient with all types of armor, but certain Barbarian abilities may be lost if armor heavier than "light" is worn.
- Favored Weapon: If the character does not already have it, he gains the feat: "Weapon Focus: Axe" at 1st level, as the Axe is Battlerager's favored weapon.

No problems here. Weapon Focus: Axe is probably already present assuming a cleric of a deity with War domain.

- Additional Rages: At 2nd, 6th, and 9th levels, the amount of times the character can rage per day increases by one.
- Spells: At 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, and 10th levels, a Sentinel increases their divine spellcasting level by one, gaining new spells and number of spells per day.

No problem.

- Grim Aura: At 3rd Level the Sentinels determination in battle is so unwavering that all enemies that attack him in melee suffer the effects of Bane (-1 to hit, -1 to fear saves). This ability lasts as long as the hostile creature remains in an adjacent position to the Sentinel. This ability does not function if a Sentinel is Unconscious, Paralyzed, or otherwise incapacitated.

Seems okay. Bane is not that powerful a spell anyway. Is there a save though? I think that the original Bane spell offers a save. 10+prestige class level+Cha bonus (or Str bonus perhaps?) would be usual.

- Extended Rage: At 5th level, the Sentinel gains the feat Extended Rage (from MotW) for free.

No problem.

- Compulsion of Battle: By 6th level, the Sentinel's bloodlust has become so strong that he will seek to enter melee as soon as possible. Every round after combat begins that the Sentinel is *not* engaged in Melee, he suffers a -2 circumstance penalty on all his actions as the compulsion to get "stuck in" gnaws at him. Likewise, if the Sentinel ever willfully and knowingly retreats from a battle (barring magical fear and other effects) he may not rage or cast higher than 1st level spells until proper penance is made (Usually, an Atonement ) As a benefit to this however, the Sentinel no longer applies the -2 AC penalty when charging

Wow! Quite a drawback. Is there any way to circumvent this (saves or the like?) You need to make explicit what the circumstance penalty applies too as well. All his actions sounds to me like attacks and checks, but would it (for example) include saves? You just need to clear this up.

- Damage Reduction: At 7th level, the Sentinel gains DR1

Okay.

- Improved Rage: At 8th level, when a Sentinel rages he gains +6 to his STR and CON instead of the previous +4. The AC penalty, however remains at -2.

Again, no problem. A single-classed barbarian would be getting Improved Rage around now anyway.

- Aura of Menace: At 9th level, divine favor radiates from the Sentinel, acting as a 15ft circle of Fear that only affects hostile creatures. This can be supressed at will, except when raging. Also, as above, this ability does not work when the Sentinel is unconcious, paralyzed or otherwise incapacitated.

Very powerful! For one, you need to make explicit the saving throw DC. Secondly, this is probably a tad too strong. You should perhaps limit this to a number of times per day. You also need to make explicit that once an opponent has saved against this, they cannot be effected again in the same day (I hope, at least!)

- Fury of Battle: at 10th level, the Sentinel has honed his rage so sharply that he is considered to be always raging if engaged in melee combat. This ability can *not* be supressed. Also, he is no longer winded after a rage.

Many are saying that this is too powerful, but I see it as balanced. It is a mixed blessing after all. When raging, you cast use your clerical spells, so if you're up against a straight or prestige barbarian or fighter, you're probably in trouble.


All in all, this class seems fine to me. The only ability I have significant qualms about is Aura of Menace- fix this and it should be fine.

 

[Rune]

Okay, here's a revised draft of the prestige class:

Sentinel of Rage (title subject to change, of course)

Hit Die

• d10

Requirements

• Any Non-lawful alignement
• Worshipper of Battle Rager
• Base Attack bonus of +5ish
• Ability to Cast 3rd Level Divine Spells
• Fulfillment of Divine Trials set by Church (or something like that)
• Access to the Strength Domain
• Feats: Cleave, Power Attack, and Toughness
• 7 Ranks in Concentrate
• 7 Ranks in Intimidate

Skills at new level = 2 + Int modifier

• Climb
• Concentration
• Craft
• Heal
• Intimidate
• Jump
• Knowledge (religion)
• Listen
• Spellcraft

Class Features

• Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Proficient with all martial and simple weapons; Proficient with all types of armor, but certain Barbarian abilities may be lost if armor heavier than "light" is worn.
• Favored Weapon: If the character does not already have it, he gains the feat: "Weapon Focus: Battleaxe" at 1st level, as the battleaxe is Battle Rager's favored weapon.
• Rage of Faith: The Sentinel gains the ability to trade in a single turn attempt, if any previous classes have yeilded this ability, to engage in a state somewhat like less powerful rage. The Sentinel's Str and Con scores are increased by 2 and the Sentinel gets a bonus of +2 to Will saves, but also provokes a penalty of -2 to the Sentinel's AC. This effect lasts until the Sentinel makes a successful strike in combat (which may be an attack of opportunity), at which time it dissipates. If the Sentinel is able to cleave through one or more opponents, the effect lasts until after the last attack made with the Cleave or Greater Cleave feats. At 8th level, the bonuses imparted by Rage of Faith may stack with the bonuses imparted by a regular rage and the AC penalty no longer applies.
• Spells: At 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, and 10th levels, a Sentinel increases their divine spellcasting level by one, gaining new spells and number of spells per day.
• Grim Aura: At 3rd Level the Sentinels determination in battle is so unwavering that all enemies that attack him in melee suffer the effects of Bane (-1 to hit, -1 to fear saves), unless they successfully make a Will save against DC 10+Sentinel level+Cha bonus. An enemy that makes this save may not be affected by this ability for an entire day. This ability lasts as long as the hostile creature threatens the Sentinel. This ability does not function if a Sentinel is Unconscious, Paralyzed, or otherwise incapacitated.
• Rush of Adrenaline: At 5th level, the Sentinel may trade in one turning attempt, if any previous classes have yielded this ability, to add his Sentinel level+Cha bonus to any one action roll, of any kind, including damage. At 7th level, this ability may be used as a reaction, for example, it may be added to saving throws and to reactionary skills.
• Compulsion of Battle: By 6th level, the Sentinel's bloodlust has become so strong that he will seek to enter melee as soon as possible. Every round after combat begins that the Sentinel is *not* engaged in Melee, he suffers a -2 circumstance penalty on all his rolls as the compulsion to get "stuck in" gnaws at him. Likewise, if the Sentinel ever willfully and knowingly retreats from a battle (barring magical fear and other effects) he may not rage or cast any divine spells until proper penance is made (Usually, an Atonement ) As a benefit to this however, the Sentinel no longer applies the -2 AC penalty when raging. The Sentinel may attempt to resist the effects of this ability by making a Will save each round after the first that he wishes to remain outside of melee combat at a DC of 10+Sentinel level+round after the first.
• Aura of Menace: At 9th level, divine favor radiates from the Sentinel, acting as a 15ft circle of Fear that only affects hostile creatures that have been hit by the Sentinel in combat, provided that they fail a Will save at DC 10+Sentinel level+Cha bonus of the Sentinel. This can be supressed at will, except when raging. A creature that has made its saving throw cannot be affected by this ability for an entire day. Also, as above, this ability does not work when the Sentinel is unconcious, paralyzed or otherwise incapacitated.
• Fury of Battle: at 10th level, the Sentinel has honed his rage so sharply that he is considered to be always raging if engaged in melee combat. This ability can *not* be supressed, but it is not triggered unless the Sentinel suffers an amount of damage equal to Con bonus X character level in a single round. This ability lasts until the Sentinel disengages from melee.

BAB = Level of Sentinel
Fort = Strong
Ref = Weak
Will = Strong

 

[Lord Ben]

Very good. A few minor adjustments I'd make.

I'd limit the Adrenaline rush to 1/day but still take up a turn attempt.

Aura of Menace - have it affect only creatures/NPC's with less HD then the character.

This is just an idea - not a balance issue. Rage of Faith - currently you have it add +2 str, con, and will saves until you make a hit in melee. Maybe change it to a 1rnd/total level divine bonus either Str, Con, or Will saves, activate as a free action on your turn. At 3rd you can use 2 at once, at 5th you can use 3 at once, at 7th you can activate as a reaction but only 1 roll instead of 1rnd/level.

1st level rager: You enter battle against a wizard, deciding he might have a charm you activate +2 divine bonus to will saves. You're a Bbn2/Clr4/Rag1 so you get a +2 for 7 rounds and burn a turning attempt.

3rd level rager: You enter against another wizard, he might have charm and you want to make sure you hit him. You burn 2 turning attempts to activate +2 str and +2 will saves, both divine bonus.

5th level - you can activate all 3 at once for 11 rnds, using 3 turning attemps. (bbn2/clr4/rag5).

7th level - a wizard ambushes you and casts color spray, you activate a +2 one time divine bonus to will save in order to make it. On your action you activate all 3 - total of 4 turning attempts.

It makes it a bit more useful, but also more limited. Turning is 3/day + cha mod right? It lasts longer, but you need to burn multiple to get the full bonus.