D&D 4E Looking for thoughts on my kitbashed 4E

[Igwilly]

Honestly, I think far too many people confuse Power with Energy.
The first is intricately connected to magic. The second, not necessarily.
In fact, I don't really like explaining Magic with a scientific concept of energy.

 

[Garthanos]

I wouldn't do that. The swordmage fulfils the Magic Knight trope just fine.

I think I will just agree on that (I do love them exactly as they are presented)

I have pictured for some time what I called an Arcadian Knight who was an arcane paladin in social role they are guardians of mages. They are sort of the paladin reflavored as arcane.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeh I have considered the possibility that sword mages might be in that wierd assed end of every skill which bleeds into extremes that outsiders call magic.

And the classic Celtic Bard was definitely Primal (as much as the Druid/Sorcerors were)

Warlocks seem to be just a variant of Divine ...ie extra planar sources you bend to your will.


The power sources I kind of like --> Personal - Environmental - Extradimensional

Yeah, I just called them Martial, Elemental, and I guess Extradimensional becomes 'Spirit' (which replaces Divine and includes all sorts of 'gets it from higher powers' cases). That makes warlocks and clerics the same power source, and kinda makes the warlock a bit like the Invoker of this scheme, except the warlock sticks to the "made a deal" flavor, so you could probably still do an Invoker that uses the "wielding power in someone's name" idea.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

As long as we're talking about sources and changing sources, I was more than a little dissapointed by the Primal Spirits angle. I was expecting primal power to come from the Primordials, which, with the Dawn War, would have given the Druids &c a more 'Old Religion' kind of feel.

Yeah, you could spin it that way. The forces of nature are the primordial forces. They bring both creation and destruction, circle of life. So the 'old faith' is then basically just that, the worship of the cycle of life and death, and all the elemental forces that lie behind it.

 

[Xeviat]

Yeah, you could spin it that way. The forces of nature are the primordial forces. They bring both creation and destruction, circle of life. So the 'old faith' is then basically just that, the worship of the cycle of life and death, and all the elemental forces that lie behind it.

I thought this too. It would have created some interesting conflict between cleric’s and Druids. Maybe some of the primordials, the ones who weren’t locked up, calmed down after the dawn war settled and realized that having some followers and playing nice had its benefits.


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[Igwilly]

I thought this too. It would have created some interesting conflict between cleric’s and Druids. Maybe some of the primordials, the ones who weren’t locked up, calmed down after the dawn war settled and realized that having some followers and playing nice had its benefits.


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That' weird. I always thought (and I still do) that the Elemental Power Source (the last one to be "introduced") should be about serving the Primordials. You know, to actually make them different from the Arcane Power.

It would be a nice thing. A cleric would fight with an elemental character, only for the druid to set aside the fight.

Honestly, I really don't think the Primal power source should be about elemental powers. In my head, Druids are mostly about plants, animals, insects, terrain and weather, and even healing. Similar to a Geomancer or Beastmaster. I would open an exception to Shamans, but elemental powers shouldn't be their only powers.

 

[Tony Vargas]

That' weird. I always thought (and I still do) that the Elemental Power Source (the last one to be "introduced") should be about serving the Primordials.

Nod, this was when PH2 wasn't out yet, so the Elemental source wasn't even on the horizon. I suppose I'd've considered that source about tapping the power of the elemental chaos, rather than serving/allying-with the primordials, directly in somewhat a cleric-like fashion.

:shrug:

I just liked the idea of there being an inherent, but obscure, distant-historic conflict between the Druids 'Old Religion' and the Divine classes' conventional religion. Mainly about Druid flavor, really.

And there was a bit of that, with the Primal Spirits excluding both Deities & Primoridials, so I guess I shouldn't complaint.

Honestly, I really don't think the Primal power source should be about elemental powers. In my head, Druids are mostly about plants, animals, insects, terrain and weather, and even healing.

The original D&D Druid had a very healthy helping of elemental powers: multiple fire, earth, & weather-related spells, and even conjuring both fire & earth elementals as willing allies that didn't turn on them.

 

[Igwilly]

Nod, this was when PH2 wasn't out yet, so the Elemental source wasn't even on the horizon. I suppose I'd've considered that source about tapping the power of the elemental chaos, rather than serving/allying-with the primordials, directly in somewhat a cleric-like fashion.

Not quite that, fellow. In the first Player’s Handbook, as the book presents the concept of power sources. It’s a sidebar; I found it at page 54, but my book is the Brazilian version, so the number may be changed. After the sidebar presented the first three power sources – Martial, Arcane and Divine – it tells about 5 “future” power sources: Elemental, Ki, Psionic, Primal and Shadow.
Up to PHB2 they were following that, so the Primal power was built around the expectation of this 8-sided view. It was when the Monk was shoehorned into Psionic that the plan was not followed.
I still think they should have followed their initial plan.

The original D&D Druid had a very healthy helping of elemental powers: multiple fire, earth, & weather-related spells, and even conjuring both fire & earth elementals as willing allies that didn't turn on them.

First: weather and terrain effects are not directly elemental. Both have similarities, but who casts it, how one casts, how it looks, etc. are different.
Second: I know Druids have elemental powers in most past editions. That’s why I said “In my head”. This is one of the cases I disagree with classic D&D.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Not quite that, fellow. In the first Player’s Handbook, as the book presents the concept of power sources. It’s a sidebar

Oh yeah, I know, it just wasn't on my radar - hadn't given it any thought at the time.

It was when the Monk was shoehorned into Psionic that the plan was not followed.
I still think they should have followed their initial plan.

Maybe they had trouble padding out ki? I'd think they'd've just plugged in all the 1e OA classes. Bushi, like fighter but better. Wu-Jen, like wizard, but better. Etc...
...so maybe not such a bad thing.

First: weather and terrain effects are not directly elemental.

Weather is pretty directly elemental air, at worst para-elemental air/water. And summoning earth elementals and shaping stone with magic are pretty firmly elemental.

I know Druids have elemental powers in most past editions. That’s why I said “In my head”. This is one of the cases I disagree with classic D&D.

Oh, OK. The fire connection to the mythical/historical Druid is pretty tenuous - yes, druids messed about with fire quite a bit by Roman accounts, but not in the sense of magically conjuring it, AFAIK.

 

[Igwilly]

Maybe they had trouble padding out ki? I'd think they'd've just plugged in all the 1e OA classes. Bushi, like fighter but better. Wu-Jen, like wizard, but better. Etc...
...so maybe not such a bad thing.

I think the D&D community has long abandoned the idea of “everything oriental is better”. Especially with an entire power source for them, we could create some pretty cool stuff, with a certain work.

Weather is pretty directly elemental air, at worst para-elemental air/water. And summoning earth elementals and shaping stone with magic are pretty firmly elemental.

I have to disagree.
For example, an air elementalist could conjure a wind wall around himself or make bubbles underwater. A druid master (for these examples, let’s exclude from him elemental powers) in weather cannot. However, a druid could summon a rainstorm or lightning from sky; an air elementalist cannot. A similar process happens with terrain and earth.
I won’t say they aren’t related, but there are significant differences.
An idea which has appeared in D&D sometimes, and I’ve seen in other places, is that (many) spells related to terrain and weather actually depend on environmental attributes to function. An elementalist, not so much. I really like that.