D&D 4E Looking for thoughts on my kitbashed 4E

[Garthanos]

When I was making a Samurai I picked Callidyrr Dragoon (theme) and Wandering Duelist (background)

But let me see pre-flavored Themes...

Samurai
Sohei

What other ones do we have?

 

[Cyvris]

I do think that, in the quest to 'nail things down' 4e sometimes put them a bit too much in a box. You can do all this fantastical stuff in 4e, but its almost all so very small-scale tactical. I feel like the whole game is just one notch too far in that direction.

That's one thing I think any 'kitbash' of 4e should aim to change or improve. I did it by adding cantrip style powers for everyone and making Rituals into the "Utility" powers characters pick, but I would love to see other people's take on that idea. More "class features" or subclasses like 5e, or race features would really help punch up 4e.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yep, the rest is Skill Challenges & Rituals...

Right, but SCs aren't described really in terms of things that come from class/race/etc. to any great degree. At least in terms of how 4e describes them. I think that linkage needs to be stronger. Rituals IMHO should be more closely linked to SCs and they should be more varied, more widely available, but also more narrowly available in some cases (so for example you could implement a class feature as effectively a ritual, nobody else could have it unless they have that class, its not something you can 'just learn the formula' of, though it could be accessible via a feat or whatnot too, I don't think things should be too exclusive).

So, for example, tracking would always happen in the context of a conflict and thus a challenge, and it thus being 'a tracker' would effectively be a practice, just one that is known to Ranger class characters as a class feature. Anyone else that wants it needs to spend a feat. Either way the mechanics are practice mechanics, it simply makes it possible to apply a skill check to a certain type of situations that are often plot elements in an SC. Thus a Ranger has 'Tracker' as a class feature, so he can use the Tracking practice, which allows you to make a Perception check to follow tracks. Success in this check is an SC success, and it can be employed at any point where it would plausibly advance the narrative. Failing the check doesn't necessarily mean you fail to track either, it just means that you don't achieve an advantageous advance of the plot of the SC, you get a failure tallied and so perhaps you DO track the targets, into an ambush, or it takes you too long to follow the tracks and the quarry gains on you, or maybe you actually lose the trail.

This is my current thinking on this whole thing. Its also possible that 'Tracker' provides access to some power(s) that work thematically with it, say something where you are really good at recognizing signs of enemies and thus you can negate surprise by using a utility power.

I think this is probably the best approach, as it is feasible to apply to pretty much stock 4e, rules wise. It would be a hacked 4e, but still compatible with existing material. You could just, for example, rewrite Ranger a bit to add the 'Tracker' class feature, at least as an option. Every other class could easily get builds/options to do analogous things. Feats and Themes could also provide similar stuff.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

That's one thing I think any 'kitbash' of 4e should aim to change or improve. I did it by adding cantrip style powers for everyone and making Rituals into the "Utility" powers characters pick, but I would love to see other people's take on that idea. More "class features" or subclasses like 5e, or race features would really help punch up 4e.

Eh, I played with the whole idea of rituals and utilities in its various varieties. Didn't come up with much that REALLY worked. I mean, you could use rituals/practices to 'prep' 'stuff' to do in combat that could consume utility slots. That isn't bad, though I think it mostly goes well with specific classes. There's not a lot of reason for other classes to do it. So you might implement artificer that way, for example. OTOH I wouldn't use that kind of concept with the fighter, just give him utility powers and let him learn practices, or get 'feature' or 'feat' practices as I outlined above in my last post. Still, I'm not against some utility powers that are a bit looser than the tactical stuff that 4e has now. Thinking about it though, I think 4e DOES have the pattern for some of those things already. The Invisibility power and pretty much any utility summons falls into that category to at least some degree. There are other similar ones too. Again as I said above, you can always group a utility power choice with acquisition of a practice. So 'Tracker' gets the surprise evasion thing, and maybe there's a 'Thief' that gets a Quick Fingers to pickpocket someone in combat with and a Case the Joint practice that gives them some things they can do in an SC type of situation.

 

[Garthanos]

I do like the idea of sub-power sources. Ki would be a sub-source of Martial. Primal would be a sub-source of Divine. “Blood” (Sorcerer and Warlock) would be a sub-source of Arcane.

Intriguing.

On the subject of Ki, I wouldn’t lump all of the “oriental” classes into it. A lot of the classes are just different takes on the classes already in D&D.

I think all of classes are diffirent flavors on existing classes (hence themes seem a perfect fit)

Ki is more related to durability and health, the characters with superhuman levels of it in anime and such are all basically super human constitution character for potency and wisdom is the control angle.

Abilities expending or interacting with Healing surges might be another way of looking at KI. They also seem to be grand master traing style abilities not necessarily powers... although I am picturing a Conlock reflavored.

 

[Garthanos]

I did it by adding cantrip style powers for everyone

Could you elaborate?

 

[Tony Vargas]

I think this is probably the best approach, as it is feasible to apply to pretty much stock 4e, rules wise. It would be a hacked 4e, but still compatible with existing material. You could just, for example, rewrite Ranger a bit to add the 'Tracker' class feature, at least as an option. Every other class could easily get builds/options to do analogous things. Feats and Themes could also provide similar stuff.

4e has stronger, more functional mechanical support for out-if-combat play than any other ed - but it's still virtually absent. Skills, rituals, the very occassional feature or power, they're sprinkled unevenly about. You wouldn't have to change much, though, just add a lot: features/rituals/practices/roles to each class to structure & balance them out of combat - or in each of the 'pillars.' The challenge is that while, distilling a functional combat balance from D&D's checkered history at least had a lot of checkers to work with, SCs were very nearly a standing start for out-of-combat.

 

[Cyvris]

Could you elaborate?

I basically created powers that are similar to the Wizard cantrips for the other powers sources. Controllers get four, while everyone else gets three.

Examples from the Martial list.

Always Equipped
You’ve taken the adventure’s motto of “Be Prepared” to heart, you always carry with you at least something that will be useful.
At-Will ✦ Martial, Knack
Standard Action Personal
Effect: You dig in your bag, producing one of the following items: bell, climbing pitons (10), glass bottle, chalk, grappling hook, hooded lantern, magnifying glass, manacles, marbles (bag of 20), mirror, rope (10ft), shovel, soap, tinderbox, whistle.
Special: Nothing you remove from your pack using this Knack can be sold or traded.

Bullwhip
You carry a whip with you at all times and have practiced extensively in its use.
At-Will ✦ Martial, Knack
Standard Action Personal
Effect: You have studied extensively with a whip and can perform the following feats or martial prowess with it as long as you are not engaged in combat.
*Pull an item up to your normal weight limit three squares closer to you.
*Snap the whip around a suitable point, allowing you to swing over a gap five squares or less without making an Athletics check, resist being pushed or pulled by natural forces, or to hang down from a point above you.
*Target one creature and pull an item out of their hand.

 

[Igwilly]

Honestly, I feel like I’m talking to the walls here, but...

“Qi” isn’t just a fancy oriental name for RPG “mana” or stuff like that. Qi (or Ki) has a much deeper meaning, which actually relates to D&D since its earliest days.
We aren’t talking about your regular Arcane Magic – which is the power you get from cosmic cheat codes – and neither Divine Magic – when someone else does the cheat codes for you. Ki is its own thing. Quite hard to understand and even more difficult to explain.
In my vision, this energy (not using scientifically accurate terms, here) permeates the existence. It’s in the land; it emanates from the bonfire you just lit; the clouds and winds are the Ki or Earth itself. It certainly plays its role in the creation and maintenance of the world. However, it can best be felt at its peak: Qi is the source of life. The so-called “vital force” that keeps all mortals alive and breathing.
The concept of “life force” is a quite important one, even for Western thought. It was once a legitimate scientific concept (until certain experiments were made), but it persisted in our imagination. If you think about the old-school, AD&D concept of Necromancy, you’ll find out that Necromancy is the manipulation of the life force by magic. This is my favorite definition of Necromancy, and vital to the way I imagine stuff. I was shocked when I realized that Necromancy might be just manipulating Ki in and out of creatures, using two “poles” to change that force: Life (Positive Energy) and Death (Negative Energy).
I won’t go so far as making Ki = Oriental classes. A good example of a ki-using, non-Asian class is the well-famed Swordsage (3.5 Tome of Battle). Many of its maneuvers are clearly supernatural, and they invoke Ki as their explanation. The Crusader could do some interesting stuff, and could be assigned some sort of “Divine Ki”.
In addition, there’s another oriental concept that is just as intriguing as Qi: the Kami, from Japan. Contrary to popular belief, Qi is a Chinese concept; it didn’t originate from Japan. “Kami” is the main belief of Shinto, which can be described as a mid-way point between animistic spirits and polytheist gods. Honestly, instead of throwing the Samurai and Ninja into Qi, we may as well link them to the Kami. Of course, that doesn’t stop us from linking the Kami to Qi! (Which is something I already started doing).

Anyway, my main point is: the concept of Qi itself is quite unexplored and can lead into a power source of its own, with or without Asian-themed classes. However, both Qi and Kami are big concepts about how a given fantasy world functions, but I think that’s fine. I see classes mainly as tools to create my world instead of obligatory character rules for every single world in a given system/edition. Use just what you like and ignore the rest, that’s the golden rule to create a setting, right?

 

[Tony Vargas]

Honestly, I feel like I’m talking to the walls here,

He's onto us!

“Qi” isn’t just a fancy oriental name for RPG “mana” or stuff like that. Qi (or Ki) has a much deeper meaning, which actually relates to D&D since its earliest days.
We aren’t talking about your regular Arcane Magic – which is the power you get from cosmic cheat codes – and neither Divine Magic – when someone else does the cheat codes for you.

The earliest days it was just the Monk. 'Ki' came into it with Oriental(ist) Adventures, c1985: every one of the "like regular class, but better, because Asian" OA classes had a 'Ki' power.

Ki is its own thing. Quite hard to understand and even more difficult to explain.

Yeah, it's all mystical.... But, really, any pre-scientific subject tended to get infused with mysticism and symbolism and religion. Westerners were just particularly credulous about all that when it came out of the Mysterious Far East... and the Theosophists got a hold of it.

In my vision, this energy (not using scientifically accurate terms, here) permeates the existence. It’s in the land; it emanates from the bonfire you just lit; the clouds and winds are the Ki or Earth itself. It certainly plays its role in the creation and maintenance of the world. However, it can best be felt at its peak: Qi is the source of life. The so-called “vital force” that keeps all mortals alive and breathing.
The concept of “life force” is a quite important one, even for Western thought. It was once a legitimate scientific concept (until certain experiments were made), but it persisted in our imagination.

Thing about the mystical energy field that permeates all living things is that everything that living things do affects it right back. It's not supernatural, it's the very definition of natural, just a very non-scientific, different-from-reality nature.

So, yeah, ki being a sub-set or add-on to Martial makes perfect sense. It piggy-backing Primal (strongly tied to the 'Natural' world) doesn't exactly clash, either.

“Kami” is the main belief of Shinto, which can be described as a mid-way point between animistic spirits and polytheist gods.

Sounds very similar in a broad way to the possible beliefs of the ancient Celts. The Romans identified them as worshiping gods, because that's what the Romans, did, they mapped every religion they found to their own pantheon, but as far as anyone can tell, they were darn near animists, putting said 'gods' in every hill, forest, stream, & well.

Sounds like it'd map seamlessly to the 4e Primal-Spirit version of Primal.